Theos-Talk Archives (May 2011 Message tt00040)

Dear Cass

My views are:

I do not believe I stated anything about "similar aspects" in general in my first comment on the issue.
So I do not really understand your view.

But, if this is the view you have I will tell you more precisely about my stance.
I will say, that there a some aspects of Jung's teachings which are similar to theosophical teachings (a very loose term, which in fact needs a more precise definition) and others are not similar; and some of the latter are central to what in general is called theosohical teachings.

Another central fact is that C. G. Jung lack some important aspects in his teachings where the psychological terms Mind Control and Social Psychology are not quite adequately dealt with - and his Red Book (Liber Novus) was not given to the public before after his death. This is a bit telling.

- - -
The concluding remarks in the article you referred to also states:
"The similarities are there. Differences are there as well. Blavatskyâs theosophy provides a
comprehensive philosophy reaching towards spiritual understanding,
science, and individual experience."
.......
"Although there are statements of Jung that he holds to reincarnation, there are others which make it unsure. As a result, âIndividuationâ seems to be more related to a single life."
.......
"Blavatsky does strongly emphasize, however, of
starting from universals and connecting them to the particulars of oneâs
life. Most psychotherapy, however, is centered on problems
(particulars) and then reaching to greater levels of understanding."
http://theosconf.org/MAY%20ITCMAGPRINTVERSION1.pdf

- - -

And because of this C. G. Jung's approach has, as I see it, a tendency to become more similar to the Hatha Yoga approach - which also is going from the particulars towards greater levels of understanding, and not as in the theosophical approach from the Universals towards the particulars.

So C. G. Jungs - official - approach is scientific and gravitates more towards a materialistic view than a spiritual doctrine about the Divine within each human. And this is also how later generations have received him. His "Red Book" was in a sense published too late.

And C. G. Jung forgot to tell people that a great many parts of his teachings on Archtypes and other psychological aspects - had already been covered in early times - then using more spiritual words - by papers given by Ibn Arabi (known in the West as Doctor Maximus - as Sufi, known as the Greatest Sheik, d. 1240) and that Al Ghazali or Algazel (d. 1111) also a Sufi (although an Islamic theologist in his early time) wrote papers very similar to Freuds theories on dreams and psychoanalysis. Yet, Jung's papers are less spiritual in their nature, and more scientific and hesitating when it comes to hypotesises like emanations of us humans and Angels and present day cosmology etc. (But Blavatsky also lacked - forwarding - a proper doctrine on the Key to Psychology. But she said that perhaps someone would forward it at the close of the 20th century.)

But, "The Seven Sermons to the Dead Septem Sermones ad Mortuos" by Carl Gustav Jung, 1916
might be an eye-opener to some...Yet it is said that it was first published officially in 1952.
(It is online here: http://www.gnosis.org/library/7Sermons.htm)

So a Scientific Mystic and Gnostic, who hid his real worldview from the public eyes. This might be a more correct presentation of his views. Theosophically speaking, he is lacking in some respects, and in others he are explaining certain psychological aspects, which was not forwarded in the early days of the Theosophical Society. And no doubt one will find that C G Jung changed his worldview during his life.

These are my views.


M. Sufilight


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 5:48 AM
  Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the Dead"


    
  The article from the theos conference says that Jung and Theosophy have many 
  similar aspects to their respective teachings.
  Cass

  >
  >From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@ygKgk8yLRdODHulRANhEFyPYHAdUY13CeGInQtOQC80rDbgY-oZWRSxwa1ood_zalDGvguKjqdE4K2adVydd9C6iqelmH4s.yahoo.invalid>
  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  >Sent: Sat, 7 May, 2011 12:37:49 AM
  >Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the Dead"
  >
  > 
  >Disagree upon what?
  >
  >----- Original Message ----- 
  >From: Cass Silva 
  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  >Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 4:46 AM
  >Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the Dead"
  >
  >Some would disagree
  >Cass
  >http://theosconf.org/MAY%20ITCMAGPRINTVERSION1.pdf
  >
  >>
  >>From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@ygKgk8yLRdODHulRANhEFyPYHAdUY13CeGInQtOQC80rDbgY-oZWRSxwa1ood_zalDGvguKjqdE4K2adVydd9C6iqelmH4s.yahoo.invalid>
  >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  >>Sent: Fri, 6 May, 2011 1:48:27 AM
  >>Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the 
  Dead"
  >>
  >> 
  >>Dear Joaquim
  >>
  >>My views are:
  >>
  >>I agree very much with you.
  >>My stance is however, that C. G. Jung was not rejecting the idea of 
  >>philosophical considerations. He in fact considers the importance or 
  >>non-importance of the doctrine on reincarnation etc.
  >>His point of view was merely scientific - instead of fantatical or only 
  >>belief-based. The doctrines on the Law of karma and reincarnation aught not to 

  >>be forwarded as dogmas, but as hypothesises. Yet, I do also find that C. G. 
  >>Jung's appearnt level of hesitation and reluctancy in suggesting what to put 
  >>instead of these doctrines is a mistake on his part. So I will square it a 
  >>little, and recommend that one seek to understand Jung's scientific approach. Of 
  >>
  >>course it is not a promotion of ethics in the same manner as the promoters of 
  >>the doctrines on the Law of karma and reincarnation are doinf, - this - as you 

  >>seem to say, can be shown from his reluctance in considering these doctrine 
  >>compared to other ethics.
  >>
  >>But since Theosophy early on was defined as - the exact Science on Psychology - 
  >
  >>by the magazine The Theosophist in Volume I, no 1, 1879 - I find it important to 
  >>
  >>compare the two positions - as scientifically as possible - with an eye on 
  >>psychological aspects as well as philosophical aspect.
  >>Okay?
  >>
  >>Another reason is, what is a fact to me, namely that many later theosophical or 
  >
  >>esoterical off-shoot seem to do a bad job in understanding theosophical 
  >>psychology and its relation to secterian and non-secterian bahviours - among 
  >>various groups in society, AND, ESPECIALLY its relation to 
  >>theosophical/esoterical groups as well, and how they operate, when promoting 
  >>altruisme without avoiding a secterian stance.
  >>
  >>M. Sufilight
  >>
  >>----- Original Message ----- 
  >>From: jdmsoares 
  >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  >>Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 12:31 AM
  >>Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the 
  Dead"
  >>
  >>Dear Sufilight, friends,
  >>
  >>Sufilight thanks.
  >>
  >>The works of Jung that you mentioned just prove that he doesn't know
  >>anything except the lower self. He shows an almost totally contempt for
  >>oriental philosophy, and many more things.
  >>
  >>That is comprehensible, because Jung prefers to be attached to the
  >>materialistic point of view. Besides that, Jung makes constant use of
  >>deliberate ambiguity and a relativistic approach to the subjects.
  >>
  >>So, as a student of theosophy I cannot see any philosophical value in
  >>the two works mentioned in the links you gave us.
  >>
  >>More important, as shown in the text "Freud, Jung, And Ethics",
  >>Jung's ideas are in opposition to ethics. We know that Ethics are in
  >>the center of true Psychology.
  >>
  >>We can read in the text:
  >>
  >>"While Freud, though not a professional philosopher, approaches the
  >>problem from a psychological and philosophical angle as William James,
  >>Dewey, and Macmurray have done, Jung states in the beginning of his
  >>book:
  >>
  >>`I restrict myself to the observation of phenomena and I refrain
  >>from any application of metaphysical or philosophical
  >>considerations.'
  >>
  >>He then goes on to explain how, as a psychologist, he can analyze
  >>religion without application of philosophical considerations." [1]
  >>
  >>Jung uses again the same approach in the mentioned works, supposedly
  >>about "Life after Death".
  >>
  >>One of the Mahatmas taught:
  >>
  >>"Exact experimental Science has nothing to do with morality, virtue,
  >>philanthropy, therefore can make no claim upon our help, until it blends
  >>itself with the metaphysics." [2]
  >>
  >>Best regards, Joaquim
  >>
  >>NOTES:
  >>
  >>[1] Worth reading "Freud, Jung, And Ethics" at
  >>http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173
  >><http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173> and 
  >>http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/freud-jung-and-ethics.html
  >><http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/freud-jung-and-ethics.html> 
  >>.
  >>
  >>[2] Read at http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/mahatma_letters.htm
  >><http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/mahatma_letters.htm>
  >>
  >>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...>
  >>wrote:
  >>>
  >>> Well, allright...here are a few words...to contemplate in a
  >>comparative study.
  >>>
  >>> C G. Jung (d. 1961) on the Law of Karma and Reincarnation:
  >>> LIfe After Death
  >>> http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/C.G._Jung_-_On_Life_After_Death.pdf
  >>>
  >>> Carl Jung's near-death experience
  >>> "The unconscious psyche believes in life after death"
  >>> http://www.near-death.com/jung.html
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>> M. Sufilight
  >>>
  >>>
  >>> ----- Original Message -----
  >>> From: jdmsoares
  >>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  >>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 1:17 AM
  >>> Subject: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of
  >>the Dead"
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>> Dear friends,
  >>>
  >>> There are many students of theosophy who admire the thought of Carl
  >>> Jung.
  >>>
  >>> However, maybe most of them don't see that Jung ideas are contrary
  >>> to Ethics, as Eric Fromm and others showed.
  >>>
  >>> There is a most interesting article that brings even more evidences
  >>> about the untheosophical ideais of Mr. Jung, and his relation with a
  >>> Dugpa sect.
  >>>
  >>> The text is published at our websites www.Esoteric-Philosophy.com
  >>> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/> and www.TheosophyOnline.com
  >>> <http://www.theosophyonline.com/> with the title:
  >>>
  >>> THEOSOPHY AND THE "BARDO THODOL"
  >>> Or Examining Some Affinities Between
  >>> Carl G. Jung And a Certain Tibetan Sect
  >>>
  >>> As it is written in the text:
  >>>
  >>> "If is perhaps a challenging fact for students of theosophy in the
  >>21st
  >>> century that a well-known thinker as Carl Jung was connected to the
  >>> Ningmapa sect literature, as well as to their methods and occult
  >>> inclinations. As we shall see, one of the main Ningma "best-selling"
  >>> books - the so-called "Bardo Thodol" or "Tibetan Book of the Dead" -
  >>had
  >>> a long- standing personal influence on Jung and received an
  >>enthusiastic
  >>> public support from him."
  >>>
  >>> Direct links to the text:
  >>> www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol.html
  >>> 
  >><http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol.h\
  > > \
  >>> tml> and http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=89
  >>> <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=89> .
  >>>
  >>> Best regards, Joaquim
  >>>
  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >>>
  >>
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  >>
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  >>
  >>
  >> 
  >
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