Theos-Talk Archives (May 2011 Message tt00043)

Dear Sufilight, Cass, friends,

Thanks Sufilight.

I think we can go even further and recognize that the main
incompatibility between Jung and Theosophy is in Ethics.

HPB was very clear when she wrote:

"Therefore it is that the Ethics of Theosophy are even more
necessary to mankind than the scientific aspects of the psychic facts of
nature and man." [1]

Jung on the other hand denies any need for Ethics, as shown in the
article "Freud, Jung, And Ethics
<http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=86> " [2]

Like Sufilight likes to quote (and quite correctly):

"Theosophy early on was defined as - the exact Science on
Psychology"

Indeed. And Psychology is inseparable from Ethics.

This is exactly the title of one text in our websites, "Psychology
and Ethics Are Inseparable
<http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173> " [3] by Erich
Fromm.

As Fromm concludes:

"Psychology can not be divorced from philosophy and ethics nor from
sociology and economics."

So, is not worth anything to talk about a supposed "incredible
connection between the writings of Carl Jung and Theosophy"[4], when
what we see in fact is a lack of real critical analysis of Jung
thoughts.

Truly incredible is the worship that many students of Theosophy continue
to have by the works of Jung. Some even write about "the theosophy
of Carl Jung".

There is no such thing as "the theosophy of Carl Jung".

Carl Jung was an admirer of Adolph Hither and necrophile just as the
Nazi leader. Jung had also a deep relation with Dugpa literature,
specifically with the "Tibetan Book of Death", a work that he
had in high regard. [5]

As I said already Jung shows an almost totally contempt for oriental
philosophy and a complete disdain for Theosophy.

Best regards, Joaquim



NOTES:

[1] "Five Messeges", at www.phx-ult-lodge.org/five_messages.htm
<http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/five_messages.htm>

[2] Read at www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=86
<http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=86>

[3] Read at www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173
<http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173>

[4] In a article published at
http://theosconf.org/MAY%20ITCMAGPRINTVERSION1.pdf
<http://theosconf.org/MAY%20ITCMAGPRINTVERSION1.pdf>

[5] Read "Theosophy and the ´Bardo Thodol" at
http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol.ht\
ml
<http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol.h\
tml>  . There is also an excellent essay on the issue published by the
ULT-Paris at
http://www.theosophie.fr/5f7-la-theosophie-et-le-livre-des-morts-tibetai\
n-bardo-thodol-premiere-partie.php
<http://www.theosophie.fr/5f7-la-theosophie-et-le-livre-des-morts-tibeta\
in-bardo-thodol-premiere-partie.php>  .





--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Cass
>
> My views are:
>
> I do not believe I stated anything about "similar aspects" in general
in my first comment on the issue.
> So I do not really understand your view.
>
> But, if this is the view you have I will tell you more precisely about
my stance.
> I will say, that there a some aspects of Jung's teachings which are
similar to theosophical teachings (a very loose term, which in fact
needs a more precise definition) and others are not similar; and some of
the latter are central to what in general is called theosohical
teachings.
>
> Another central fact is that C. G. Jung lack some important aspects in
his teachings where the psychological terms Mind Control and Social
Psychology are not quite adequately dealt with - and his Red Book (Liber
Novus) was not given to the public before after his death. This is a bit
telling.
>
> - - -
> The concluding remarks in the article you referred to also states:
> "The similarities are there. Differences are there as well.
Blavatskyâ??s theosophy provides a
> comprehensive philosophy reaching towards spiritual understanding,
> science, and individual experience."
> .......
> "Although there are statements of Jung that he holds to reincarnation,
there are others which make it unsure. As a result,
â??Individuationâ?? seems to be more related to a single
life."
> .......
> "Blavatsky does strongly emphasize, however, of
> starting from universals and connecting them to the particulars of
oneâ??s
> life. Most psychotherapy, however, is centered on problems
> (particulars) and then reaching to greater levels of understanding."
> http://theosconf.org/MAY%20ITCMAGPRINTVERSION1.pdf
>
> - - -
>
> And because of this C. G. Jung's approach has, as I see it, a tendency
to become more similar to the Hatha Yoga approach - which also is going
from the particulars towards greater levels of understanding, and not as
in the theosophical approach from the Universals towards the
particulars.
>
> So C. G. Jungs - official - approach is scientific and gravitates more
towards a materialistic view than a spiritual doctrine about the Divine
within each human. And this is also how later generations have received
him. His "Red Book" was in a sense published too late.
>
> And C. G. Jung forgot to tell people that a great many parts of his
teachings on Archtypes and other psychological aspects - had already
been covered in early times - then using more spiritual words - by
papers given by Ibn Arabi (known in the West as Doctor Maximus - as
Sufi, known as the Greatest Sheik, d. 1240) and that Al Ghazali or
Algazel (d. 1111) also a Sufi (although an Islamic theologist in his
early time) wrote papers very similar to Freuds theories on dreams and
psychoanalysis. Yet, Jung's papers are less spiritual in their nature,
and more scientific and hesitating when it comes to hypotesises like
emanations of us humans and Angels and present day cosmology etc. (But
Blavatsky also lacked - forwarding - a proper doctrine on the Key to
Psychology. But she said that perhaps someone would forward it at the
close of the 20th century.)
>
> But, "The Seven Sermons to the Dead Septem Sermones ad Mortuos" by
Carl Gustav Jung, 1916
> might be an eye-opener to some...Yet it is said that it was first
published officially in 1952.
> (It is online here: http://www.gnosis.org/library/7Sermons.htm)
>
> So a Scientific Mystic and Gnostic, who hid his real worldview from
the public eyes. This might be a more correct presentation of his views.
Theosophically speaking, he is lacking in some respects, and in others
he are explaining certain psychological aspects, which was not forwarded
in the early days of the Theosophical Society. And no doubt one will
find that C G Jung changed his worldview during his life.
>
> These are my views.
>
>
> M. Sufilight
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Cass Silva
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 5:48 AM
>   Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book
of the Dead"
>
>
>
>   The article from the theos conference says that Jung and Theosophy
have many
>   similar aspects to their respective teachings.
>   Cass
>
>   >
>   >From: M. Sufilight global-theosophy@...
>   >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   >Sent: Sat, 7 May, 2011 12:37:49 AM
>   >Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book
of the Dead"
>   >
>   >
>   >Disagree upon what?
>   >
>   >----- Original Message -----
>   >From: Cass Silva
>   >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   >Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 4:46 AM
>   >Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book
of the Dead"
>   >
>   >Some would disagree
>   >Cass
>   >http://theosconf.org/MAY%20ITCMAGPRINTVERSION1.pdf
>   >
>   >>
>   >>From: M. Sufilight global-theosophy@...
>   >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   >>Sent: Fri, 6 May, 2011 1:48:27 AM
>   >>Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book
of the
>   Dead"
>   >>
>   >>
>   >>Dear Joaquim
>   >>
>   >>My views are:
>   >>
>   >>I agree very much with you.
>   >>My stance is however, that C. G. Jung was not rejecting the idea
of
>   >>philosophical considerations. He in fact considers the importance
or
>   >>non-importance of the doctrine on reincarnation etc.
>   >>His point of view was merely scientific - instead of fantatical or
only
>   >>belief-based. The doctrines on the Law of karma and reincarnation
aught not to
>
>   >>be forwarded as dogmas, but as hypothesises. Yet, I do also find
that C. G.
>   >>Jung's appearnt level of hesitation and reluctancy in suggesting
what to put
>   >>instead of these doctrines is a mistake on his part. So I will
square it a
>   >>little, and recommend that one seek to understand Jung's
scientific approach. Of
>   >>
>   >>course it is not a promotion of ethics in the same manner as the
promoters of
>   >>the doctrines on the Law of karma and reincarnation are doinf, -
this - as you
>
>   >>seem to say, can be shown from his reluctance in considering these
doctrine
>   >>compared to other ethics.
>   >>
>   >>But since Theosophy early on was defined as - the exact Science on
Psychology -
>   >
>   >>by the magazine The Theosophist in Volume I, no 1, 1879 - I find
it important to
>   >>
>   >>compare the two positions - as scientifically as possible - with
an eye on
>   >>psychological aspects as well as philosophical aspect.
>   >>Okay?
>   >>
>   >>Another reason is, what is a fact to me, namely that many later
theosophical or
>   >
>   >>esoterical off-shoot seem to do a bad job in understanding
theosophical
>   >>psychology and its relation to secterian and non-secterian
bahviours - among
>   >>various groups in society, AND, ESPECIALLY its relation to
>   >>theosophical/esoterical groups as well, and how they operate, when
promoting
>   >>altruisme without avoiding a secterian stance.
>   >>
>   >>M. Sufilight
>   >>
>   >>----- Original Message -----
>   >>From: jdmsoares
>   >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   >>Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 12:31 AM
>   >>Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book
of the
>   Dead"
>   >>
>   >>Dear Sufilight, friends,
>   >>
>   >>Sufilight thanks.
>   >>
>   >>The works of Jung that you mentioned just prove that he doesn't
know
>   >>anything except the lower self. He shows an almost totally
contempt for
>   >>oriental philosophy, and many more things.
>   >>
>   >>That is comprehensible, because Jung prefers to be attached to the
>   >>materialistic point of view. Besides that, Jung makes constant use
of
>   >>deliberate ambiguity and a relativistic approach to the subjects.
>   >>
>   >>So, as a student of theosophy I cannot see any philosophical value
in
>   >>the two works mentioned in the links you gave us.
>   >>
>   >>More important, as shown in the text "Freud, Jung, And Ethics",
>   >>Jung's ideas are in opposition to ethics. We know that Ethics are
in
>   >>the center of true Psychology.
>   >>
>   >>We can read in the text:
>   >>
>   >>"While Freud, though not a professional philosopher, approaches
the
>   >>problem from a psychological and philosophical angle as William
James,
>   >>Dewey, and Macmurray have done, Jung states in the beginning of
his
>   >>book:
>   >>
>   >>`I restrict myself to the observation of phenomena and I refrain
>   >>from any application of metaphysical or philosophical
>   >>considerations.'
>   >>
>   >>He then goes on to explain how, as a psychologist, he can analyze
>   >>religion without application of philosophical considerations." [1]
>   >>
>   >>Jung uses again the same approach in the mentioned works,
supposedly
>   >>about "Life after Death".
>   >>
>   >>One of the Mahatmas taught:
>   >>
>   >>"Exact experimental Science has nothing to do with morality,
virtue,
>   >>philanthropy, therefore can make no claim upon our help, until it
blends
>   >>itself with the metaphysics." [2]
>   >>
>   >>Best regards, Joaquim
>   >>
>   >>NOTES:
>   >>
>   >>[1] Worth reading "Freud, Jung, And Ethics" at
>   >>http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173
>   >><http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173> and
>  
>>http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/freud-jung-and-ethics.html
>  
>><http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/freud-jung-and-ethics.html\
>
>   >>.
>   >>
>   >>[2] Read at http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/mahatma_letters.htm
>   >><http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/mahatma_letters.htm>
>   >>
>   >>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight"
global-theosophy@
>   >>wrote:
>   >>>
>   >>> Well, allright...here are a few words...to contemplate in a
>   >>comparative study.
>   >>>
>   >>> C G. Jung (d. 1961) on the Law of Karma and Reincarnation:
>   >>> LIfe After Death
>   >>> http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/C.G._Jung_-_On_Life_After_Death.pdf
>   >>>
>   >>> Carl Jung's near-death experience
>   >>> "The unconscious psyche believes in life after death"
>   >>> http://www.near-death.com/jung.html
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>> M. Sufilight
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>> ----- Original Message -----
>   >>> From: jdmsoares
>   >>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   >>> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 1:17 AM
>   >>> Subject: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book
of
>   >>the Dead"
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>> Dear friends,
>   >>>
>   >>> There are many students of theosophy who admire the thought of
Carl
>   >>> Jung.
>   >>>
>   >>> However, maybe most of them don't see that Jung ideas are
contrary
>   >>> to Ethics, as Eric Fromm and others showed.
>   >>>
>   >>> There is a most interesting article that brings even more
evidences
>   >>> about the untheosophical ideais of Mr. Jung, and his relation
with a
>   >>> Dugpa sect.
>   >>>
>   >>> The text is published at our websites
www.Esoteric-Philosophy.com
>   >>> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/> and
www.TheosophyOnline.com
>   >>> <http://www.theosophyonline.com/> with the title:
>   >>>
>   >>> THEOSOPHY AND THE "BARDO THODOL"
>   >>> Or Examining Some Affinities Between
>   >>> Carl G. Jung And a Certain Tibetan Sect
>   >>>
>   >>> As it is written in the text:
>   >>>
>   >>> "If is perhaps a challenging fact for students of theosophy in
the
>   >>21st
>   >>> century that a well-known thinker as Carl Jung was connected to
the
>   >>> Ningmapa sect literature, as well as to their methods and occult
>   >>> inclinations. As we shall see, one of the main Ningma
"best-selling"
>   >>> books - the so-called "Bardo Thodol" or "Tibetan Book of the
Dead" -
>   >>had
>   >>> a long- standing personal influence on Jung and received an
>   >>enthusiastic
>   >>> public support from him."
>   >>>
>   >>> Direct links to the text:
>   >>>
www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol.html
>   >>>
>  
>><http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol\
.h\
>   > > \
>   >>> tml> and http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=89
>   >>> <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=89> .
>   >>>
>   >>> Best regards, Joaquim
>   >>>
>   >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >>>
>   >>
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>   >>
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>   >>
>   >>
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