Theos-Talk Archives (June 2009 Message tt00522)

You have touched on the disenfranchising move and you correctly stated that
disenfranchising members from voting in a President amounts to taking away
the freedom of members to choose a President.

-

That is the key issue. The move should be viewed in the context of the
events and individuals involved, its timing and how the move was attempted
to be implemented.

-

The General Council has the monopoly to nominate the candidates for the
president. Disenfranchising the members and transferring the power to
appoint the president by the GC means the GC will have the monopoly to
appoint the president. In this day and age of democracy, disenfranchising
members is a no no. Also the move was super secret and even long time
members and volunteers at Intl and National HQs were kept in the dark and
had to learn from this maillist. As for timing, it was attempted soon after
the president was elected. Look at the individuals who were behind the move
and you can draw your own conclusion. But for this maillist, which is
outside the control of all organizations (all organizations want to control
the information flow to their members so that the leaders can spin the
info), the disenfranchisement would have been a fait accompli and all of us
would have been surprised and shocked and TS would have changed for ever for
the worse, IMHO. To my knowledge, no one in the last 134 years, even dreamt
of disenfranchising the members and the attempt is truly historical.

-

It is to be noted that even after the discovery of the secret move and
broadcast to the members on the Internet, which of course was received by
many members world-wide with shock and sadness, there was no public apology
from the proponents. The consequence of this is that in the minds of many
members, the trust they had in their leaders has precipitously dropped. No
leader can lead unless the members have a high degree of confidence and
trust in their leaders. Trust is built over a long period of time and can be
destroyed overnight and cannot be easily recovered.

-

I have also to remind about the cleavage evidenced by the votes in the GC
meeting and we have not seen much of any effort in fixing it. Does the
cleavage help TS and theosophy? Answer is simply No. Are any of the leaders
looking at ways of quickly and dramatically fixing it? Not that we have seen
so far.

-

In the light of the above, what is in store for the future of theosophy and
TS? Perhaps, it is time to consult an astrologer!!!

-

MKR

-

Visit theosophy.net and enjoy the community.









On 6/23/09, preethi muthiah <seeker_preethi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear MKR,
>
> I am a bit concerned with the way you keep repeating that the attempt to
> disenfranchise the members of the TS to vote in an election for the
> President was done in order to make the President a puppet in the hands of
> the General Council. I understand that since you have never visited Adyar
> you (as many others who read and participate in this online discussion
> group) would not know that we do have a puppet as the President. Since she
> has not developed the faculty of discriminating for herself the strengths
> and weaknesses of all those who work directly under her, either at Adyar or
> as General and Federation Secretaries, most times what does happen is that
> she "believes" the version of the First Person who reports his/her version
> of an event to her. For Your Information and that of many others, I will
> describe some typical scenes that happen daily at the President's Office:
>
> Scene 1: Year 2000. A typesetting error occurs in a book newly brought out
> by the TPH, Adyar. Typesetter at that time is Mrs Ranjini and in-charge of
> typesetting section is Ms Elvira Carbonell. Sushama Sreenath (who is now
> Sushama Webber and lives in New Zealand and is additionally what you would
> call a "nth generation Theosophist") goes to the President to show the
> artwork for the cover of a book. Mrs Burnier mentions the error to her.
> Sushama says she doesn't know anything about it and blames it on Mr G.
> Naganathan. Mrs Burnier does not clarify it with Mr Naganathan who is
> assistant Editor for the Theosophist, but also edits books and other
> publications of the TPH. RSB instead asks her niece Subha Nilakanta for
> clarification and mentions that Sushama thinks it is the responsibility of
> Mr Naganathan. Ms Nilakanta agrees with Sushama, knowing fully well that Mr
> Naganathan is not involved with the typesetting section. Then the President
> calls Mr
> Naganathan and blames him without giving him an opportunity to even defend
> himself, which defence basically includes the fact that he is not at all
> involved in the typesetting part of book publishing. He, as a fellow human
> and a committed Theosophist and worker at Adyar has no right to defend his
> name. Mrs Burnier gives no one that right. She is President authority and
> blames as she feels.
>
> Scene 2: Year 2001: The Theosophist, Issue June 2001. A chance diacritical
> wrongly appears on a Sanskrit word. Mrs Burnier asks Subha Nilakanta instead
> of Mr C.S. Raghavan who has taken up the post of Officer-in-Charge of the
> Editorial Office after Mr G. Naganathan quit the office in 2000 due to the
> incident mentioned above. Subha Nilakanta without asking Mr Raghavan or
> clarifying at the Office, mentions Preethi Muthiah's name. Mrs Burnier
> blames Preethi Muthiah who works there as a Proof Reader. Mrs Ranjini who is
> the typesetter for the Theosophist goes to Subha Nilakanta and tells her
> that it is not Preethi's fault but her own. Subha chooses not to inform the
> President about this. Mrs Burnier in addition initiates gossip in which she
> tells workers at Adyar that "Preethi thinks she knows Sanskrit but she does
> not". Preethi on hearing she is blamed and gossiped about decides to quit..
> Venkatesh who works at the Library and helps out with computer
> problems at the Editorial Office and other departments at Adyar decides to
> look into the matter and is told by Mrs Ranjini that it was her fault and
> not Preethi's and that she had already informed Subha Nilakanta about this.
> Venkatesh goes to RSB with that knowledge and information. RSB refuses to
> apologize to Preethi, and in subsequent years, she keeps that bit of gossip
> and her version of the incident alive. I hear these days she tells people
> (like Pedro Oliveira) that Preethi (which is myself) left the Editorial
> Office in 2001 because she was criticized and could not take it.
>
> Scene 3: Year 2007: Mrs Erica Georgiades arrived at Adyar after a gap of
> several years to attend the Convention. After a few days of her arrival, she
> comes into the office of Leadbeater Chambers to announce that she is going
> to be speaking during the interntional Convention in one of the symposiums.
> A couple of days after this announcement, I am told that she wangled this
> privilege from the President by haranguing the President for nearly 1-1/2
> hours. How do I know this information? President tells this to Uma
> Nilakanta, Radha Muthiah, and some others, who then relate it to me and
> others as well, because all are surprised to see that a young member of the
> TS is going to speak at the international Convention, knowing fully well
> that the President does not give that privilege to youngsters, and had not
> given that to even knowledgeable young speakers like Dr Pablo Sender. The
> only other youngster to my knowledge who has had that privilege would be
> Pedro
> Oliveira, another Brazilian.
>
> Scene 4: Over the years from mid-1998 to mid-2000: Preethi goes to meet the
> President on official work. She asks Preethi how she is enjoying her work at
> the Editorial Office. Preethi generally tends to say she is enjoying her
> work. But the divisive-intentioned President tells Preethi that Sushama (who
> used to come on-and-off to offer the artistic skills for book-designing and
> cover art) told the President that Preethi is temperamental (which i was at
> that time) and not a easy to work with (for Sushama i would not be easy to
> work with as I am conscientious and diligent and in those days was also the
> immature person who questioned Sushama'a habitual latecoming to work).. But
> Preethi says nothing except to shed tears of hurt and try to defend my name.
> I become aware by talking to others that when Sushama goes to the
> President's Office, she is told by the President that Preethi has spoken ill
> of her, while all i did was to shed tears and try and defend
> myself.
>
> It took me 5 years to become immune to the effects of Mrs Burnier's
> gossiping tendencies, but there are many others in the TS till now who
> believe her version of each other, and are reacting against each other
> without cause. This is the way the President keeps us divided, turning us
> against each other.
>
> And since we were talking about the President's becoming a puppet in the
> hands of the General Council, we might want to ask the further question of
> why are those who opposed the move -- I oppose it because I know that
> disenfranchising members from voting in a President amounts to taking away
> the freedom of members to choose a President -- opposing it? At the moment,
> the President is a puppet in the hands of Pedro Oliveira, Helen Jamieson,
> Keshwar Dastur, Radha Muthiah, Uma Nilakanta, Nandan Nilakanta, Subha
> Nilakanta, S.. Ramu, Dr A. Kannan, N. Muthuswamy, S. Ravindran, Shailendra
> Agrawal, S. Harihara Raghavan, Radha Harihara Raghavan, Breda and Dusan
> Zagar, Ricardo Lindemann, Marcos Resende, etc.. All of these people
> mentioned can twist the President according to their whim and fancy. It is
> quite common at Adyar, for example, for one to see that those who do not
> impress Mrs Uma Nilakanta, for example, will find that the next time they
> ask for permission
> to reside at Leadbeater Chambers, they will be refused that permission; not
> because they did something wrong -- which wrong can be corrected with
> compassion and understanding -- but solely because Uma Nilakanta did not
> like a person's face, or perhaps he/she did not give Uma Nilakanta the ego
> boost she needed. This is the case with most office-bearers at Adyar...and
> perhaps worldwide.
>
> So as far as puppet-Presidents are concerned, we now need to think,
> perhaps, which part of the General Council ought to have a say in what the
> President will do....those who have only vested interests in holding
> positions of power and authority, or those who have through their lifetime
> of work and diligence for the TS, shown that in addition to the vested
> interest, they also have an interest in the continuance of the TS as at
> least resembling the TS our Founders incepted...and have from time to time
> opposed the policies of the President when they thought that these policies
> would harm the future of Adyar and the TS worldwide.
>
> Fraternal greetings
>
> Preethi
>
> --- On Mon, 22/6/09, MKR <mkr777@gmail.com <mkr777%40gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> From: MKR <mkr777@gmail.com <mkr777%40gmail.com>>
> Subject: Theos-World Re: Anand's stand and the election
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Monday, 22 June, 2009, 6:45 PM
>
> Dear Anand:
>
> -
>
> I think that what we know of the election is just the tip of the iceberg
> and
>
> we do not know all that went on behind the scenes. My hope is some day we
>
> may have more complete information about who did what and when and why?
>
> -
>
> I have been following closely all your msgs since the start of the election
>
> and you have been fair and helpful. Atleast you are posting msgs under your
>
> name and not under a pseudonym or thru a front. For those who falsely
>
> misunderstood your stand in the election, I suggest they read all your
>
> messages in the theos-talk archive. When you speak truth, you need not be
>
> concerned since you know in your heart of hearts that what you say is true.
>
> -
>
> All the discussions here started with the allegation about Radhaâs health -
>
> and that too laymanâs opinions that was shot down by professional opinions.
>
> The pity is that none of the leaders really foresaw the need to find and
>
> develop young leaders. As I have stated several times, every upcoming and
>
> growing organization are always lead by young or middle aged persons and
>
> not septuagenarians or octogenarians. My hope is that the electioneering
> and
>
> subsequent end-run secret attempt to disenfranchise all of us and seize
>
> control of appointment of the president, thus make the president a puppet
> is
>
> a wake up call for everyone. This may not be the last such attempt.
>
> -
>
> I also hope that those who have operated for years behind the scenes and
>
> kept members in the dark about the happenings understand how transparency
> is
>
> urgently needed to prevent unnecessary secrecy causing more serious
>
> problems, keeping in mind Master KHâs warning in his 1900 letter.. It is
> not
>
> easy to get out of the secrecy mindset, especially if you have operated in
>
> that environment for too long.
>
> -
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
> -
>
> MKR
>
> -
>
> Visit www.thesophy. net and enjoy all the good stuff there.
>
> -
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 3:10 AM, Anand <AnandGholap@ gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Dear MKR,
>
> > Transparency and such conditions greatly depend on the International
>
> > President. As all offices like ES, masonry and TS Presidency are
>
> > concentrated in Mrs. Burnier, she has considerable control over what
> happens
>
> > in TS. Changes like transparency depend on her, to great extent. For many
>
> > years no General Secretary dared to challenge or question Mrs. Burnier
> for
>
> > the reasons Annie Besant mentioned and I elaborated further. It is only
> last
>
> > year that John Algeo unexpectedly gave tough fight in Presidential
> election.
>
> > Supporters of Mrs. Burnier won't like it. But such election actually is
> the
>
> > sign that democracy exists to some extent. Suppose John Algeo had
> announced
>
> > two years back that he would run for the Presient, would Mrs. Burnier
>
> > appoint John as Vice-President? I don't think she would have. It appears
>
> > that because he challenged her in Presidential election, he is not again
>
> > selected for any office at international level.
>
> >
>
> > In this Presidential election I was neutral toward both the candidates..
>
> > Somebody circulated wrong message that I supported John Algeo. That has
> made
>
> > some officers in Adyar TS to go against me. I don't give a damn because
> they
>
> > will be damned by karmic results of their own actions.
>
> >
>
> > Anand Gholap
>
> >
>
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>, MKR
>
>
> > <mkr777@...> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > How about Tsunami? Founders getting fed up with the bickering among
>
> > > theosophists!
>
> > > MKR
>
> > >
>
> > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 4:56 PM, <Drpsionic@. ..> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > I'm beginning to think we would all be better off if Adyar fell into
>
> > the
>
> > > > bay and the sharks, who are not vegetarians, could deal with the
>
> > problem.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Chuck the Heretic
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > In a message dated 6/21/2009 11:44:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>
> > > > seeker_preethi@ ... <seeker_preethi% 40yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Hi MKR,
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Not surprised, but only shall we say disappointed, because we are
>
> > > > forgetting that the TS is meant to be a spiritual organization. Why
>
> > speak
>
> > > > such high
>
> > > > philosophy when in the end one has to lead life in the same manner as
>
> > > > those who do not speak it or have no knowledge of it? And why expect
>
> > then
>
> > > > that
>
> > > > one must be treated any different when one behaves in a manner that
> is
>
> > > > similar to the materialistic world around? Seems more like in the
> past
>
> > few
>
> > > > decades we have become more like the many religionists who hold on to
>
> > empty
>
> > > >
>
> > > > words that don't translate into every day living. So then, perhaps,
> it
>
> > is
>
> > > > best
>
> > > > to break the walls of Adyar and just continue to live with the world
> --
>
> > > > which is not really bad at all -- as the world is. Why pretend to be
>
> > one
>
> > > > thing and then be something totally different?
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Just some thoughts.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Preethi
>
> > > >
>
> > > > --- On Sun, 21/6/09, MKR <_mkr777@... <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_
>
> > > > (mailto:mkr777@ ... <mkr777%40gmail. com>) >
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >
>
> > > > From: MKR <_mkr777@... <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_ (mailto:
>
> > > > mkr777@... <mkr777%40gmail. com>) >
>
> > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Adyar estate
>
> > > > To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups..com<theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
>
> > <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>)
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Date: Sunday, 21 June, 2009, 1:51 AM
>
> > > >
>
> > > > No one should be surprised. Did not one of the Masters stated that
>
> > human
>
> > > > nature is the same whether in Adyar or in London. This just proves
> it.
>
> > (At
>
> > > > least two people were not fighting or killing each other!)
>
> > > > ..
>
> > > > MKR
>
> > > > ..
>
> > > >
>
> > > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:58 AM, preethi muthiah
>
> > > > <seeker_preethi@ yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> > > >
>
> > > > > Last year in fact we had a general secretary forget her nuptial
> vows
>
> > and
>
> > > > > commit adultery in her marriage.
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > > >
>
> > > > ICC World Twenty20 England &#39;09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET
>
> > > > _http://cricket. http://cr_ (http://cricket. yahoo.com/)
>
> > > >
>
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > > >
>
> > > > ************ **Download the AOL Classifieds Toolbar for local deals
> at
>
> > your
>
> > > > fingertips.
>
> > > > (
>
> > > >
>
> > http://toolbar. aol.com/aolclass ifieds/download. html?ncid=
> emlcntusdown0000 0004
>
> > > > )
>
> > > >
>
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter
> http://cricket.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]