Theos-Talk Archives (June 2009 Message tt00521)

Dear Mr.Jerry,

Gossip and ambition, a lot of ambition!!These elements often come together. That is what we see happening once more at this very moment: very ambitious and gossipy people, trying to use this vehicle for their own sake, considering themselves the keepers of truth. Whose truth? How wrong...

Roberta




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
> 
> May I add my own perspective, which is based upon almost fifty years of 
> active membership in, and observation of the Theosophical Society? 
> 
> The problem is not the International President; typesetters, proof 
> readers, printers, etc. Nor is it Ms. Georgiades.  The problem is 
> gossip.  Since I joined this organization in 1963, gossip has been the 
> bulldozer that has unjustly ruined many a member's reputation, and 
> driven many productive and creative workers for the cause of Theosophy 
> to resign, or just quietly leave the organization.  I watched the 
> effects of gossip overthrow a National President in 1965; undermine the 
> reformist efforts of an International President in the 1970's, and 
> watched numerous people have their reputations stained through gossip 
> when they dared to seek an elective office in the TS higher than 
> federation president.  Further, a careful study of the Theosophical 
> Society's history revealed to me that gossip has been a major political 
> tool and disruptive force in the TS, going all the way back into the 
> 19th century!
> 
> As long as gossip remains a weapon for those who are insecure about 
> their position, ambitious for a higher one, or feel threatened by 
> someone who might be a bit smarter and/or more capable than they are, 
> the Theosophical Society will remain a third rate organization.  It is 
> the Organization's high ideals and unparalleled teachings that has 
> attracted members to this organization, and the less than brotherly acts 
> from members of officers that have driven some of our most capable 
> people away. 
> 
> When the members and officers learn not to engage in gossip; remain 
> silent when they hear it from others; and  practice discerning between 
> what is good for the Theosophical Movement and what hurts it, the TS 
> will be well on its way to doing the work that will bring major changes 
> in this world for the good of all humanity.  
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> robertapimenta26 wrote:
> >
> >
> > Could it be, dear ladies that both of you are right? Perhaps the 
> > International President really passed on mixed-up information to third 
> > parties in the manner Mrs. Preethi describes, and was Mrs. Erica's 
> > talk confirmed a month or so before she left for Adyar, exactly as she 
> > suggets.
> >
> > Makes perfectly sense to me; a very confused head.
> >
> > Roberta
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Erica L. Georgiades" 
> > <eletzerich@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Preety,
> > >
> > > You say:
> > >
> > > "Scene 3: Year 2007: Mrs Erica Georgiades arrived at Adyar after a gap
> > > of several years to attend the Convention. After a few days of her
> > > arrival, she comes into the office of Leadbeater Chambers to announce
> > > that she is going to be speaking during the interntional Convention in
> > > one of the symposiums. A couple of days after this announcement, I am
> > > told that she wangled this privilege from the President by haranguing
> > > the President for nearly 1-1/2 hours. How do I know this information?
> > > President tells this to Uma Nilakanta, Radha Muthiah, and some others,
> > > who then relate it to me and others as well, because all are surprised
> > > to see that a young member of the TS is going to speak at the
> > > international Convention, knowing fully well that the President does
> > > not give that privilege to youngsters, and had not given that to even
> > > knowledgeable young speakers like Dr Pablo Sender."
> > >
> > > I really doubt this information. As I went to the International 
> > Convention of 2007 representing the Greek Section, and in the position 
> > of secretary of the same. My lecture during the International 
> > Convention was closed more than one month before my arrival in Adyar. 
> > So I wonder how from Greece I could seat more than one and half hour 
> > with Radhaji to ask for a lecture. I have all the correspondence 
> > related to the fact in the archives of the T.S. in Greece.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Erica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: preethi muthiah <seeker_preethi@>
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 8:54:21 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Anand's stand and the election
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear MKR,
> > >
> > > I am a bit concerned with the way you keep repeating that the 
> > attempt to disenfranchise the members of the TS to vote in an election 
> > for the President was done in order to make the President a puppet in 
> > the hands of the General Council. I understand that since you have 
> > never visited Adyar you (as many others who read and participate in 
> > this online discussion group) would not know that we do have a puppet 
> > as the President. Since she has not developed the faculty of 
> > discriminating for herself the strengths and weaknesses of all those 
> > who work directly under her, either at Adyar or as General and 
> > Federation Secretaries, most times what does happen is that she 
> > "believes" the version of the First Person who reports his/her version 
> > of an event to her. For Your Information and that of many others, I 
> > will describe some typical scenes that happen daily at the President's 
> > Office:
> > >
> > > Scene 1: Year 2000. A typesetting error occurs in a book newly 
> > brought out by the TPH, Adyar. Typesetter at that time is Mrs Ranjini 
> > and in-charge of typesetting section is Ms Elvira Carbonell. Sushama 
> > Sreenath (who is now Sushama Webber and lives in New Zealand and is 
> > additionally what you would call a "nth generation Theosophist" ) goes 
> > to the President to show the artwork for the cover of a book. Mrs 
> > Burnier mentions the error to her. Sushama says she doesn't know 
> > anything about it and blames it on Mr G. Naganathan. Mrs Burnier does 
> > not clarify it with Mr Naganathan who is assistant Editor for the 
> > Theosophist, but also edits books and other publications of the TPH. 
> > RSB instead asks her niece Subha Nilakanta for clarification and 
> > mentions that Sushama thinks it is the responsibility of Mr 
> > Naganathan. Ms Nilakanta agrees with Sushama, knowing fully well that 
> > Mr Naganathan is not involved with the typesetting section. Then the 
> > President calls Mr
> > > Naganathan and blames him without giving him an opportunity to even 
> > defend himself, which defence basically includes the fact that he is 
> > not at all involved in the typesetting part of book publishing. He, as 
> > a fellow human and a committed Theosophist and worker at Adyar has no 
> > right to defend his name. Mrs Burnier gives no one that right. She is 
> > President authority and blames as she feels.
> > >
> > > Scene 2: Year 2001: The Theosophist, Issue June 2001. A chance 
> > diacritical wrongly appears on a Sanskrit word. Mrs Burnier asks Subha 
> > Nilakanta instead of Mr C.S. Raghavan who has taken up the post of 
> > Officer-in-Charge of the Editorial Office after Mr G. Naganathan quit 
> > the office in 2000 due to the incident mentioned above. Subha 
> > Nilakanta without asking Mr Raghavan or clarifying at the Office, 
> > mentions Preethi Muthiah's name. Mrs Burnier blames Preethi Muthiah 
> > who works there as a Proof Reader. Mrs Ranjini who is the typesetter 
> > for the Theosophist goes to Subha Nilakanta and tells her that it is 
> > not Preethi's fault but her own. Subha chooses not to inform the 
> > President about this. Mrs Burnier in addition initiates gossip in 
> > which she tells workers at Adyar that "Preethi thinks she knows 
> > Sanskrit but she does not". Preethi on hearing she is blamed and 
> > gossiped about decides to quit.. Venkatesh who works at the Library 
> > and helps out with computer
> > > problems at the Editorial Office and other departments at Adyar 
> > decides to look into the matter and is told by Mrs Ranjini that it was 
> > her fault and not Preethi's and that she had already informed Subha 
> > Nilakanta about this. Venkatesh goes to RSB with that knowledge and 
> > information. RSB refuses to apologize to Preethi, and in subsequent 
> > years, she keeps that bit of gossip and her version of the incident 
> > alive. I hear these days she tells people (like Pedro Oliveira) that 
> > Preethi (which is myself) left the Editorial Office in 2001 because 
> > she was criticized and could not take it.
> > >
> > > Scene 3: Year 2007: Mrs Erica Georgiades arrived at Adyar after a 
> > gap of several years to attend the Convention. After a few days of her 
> > arrival, she comes into the office of Leadbeater Chambers to announce 
> > that she is going to be speaking during the interntional Convention in 
> > one of the symposiums. A couple of days after this announcement, I am 
> > told that she wangled this privilege from the President by haranguing 
> > the President for nearly 1-1/2 hours. How do I know this information? 
> > President tells this to Uma Nilakanta, Radha Muthiah, and some others, 
> > who then relate it to me and others as well, because all are surprised 
> > to see that a young member of the TS is going to speak at the 
> > international Convention, knowing fully well that the President does 
> > not give that privilege to youngsters, and had not given that to even 
> > knowledgeable young speakers like Dr Pablo Sender. The only other 
> > youngster to my knowledge who has had that privilege would be Pedro
> > > Oliveira, another Brazilian.
> > >
> > > Scene 4: Over the years from mid-1998 to mid-2000: Preethi goes to 
> > meet the President on official work. She asks Preethi how she is 
> > enjoying her work at the Editorial Office. Preethi generally tends to 
> > say she is enjoying her work. But the divisive-intentione d President 
> > tells Preethi that Sushama (who used to come on-and-off to offer the 
> > artistic skills for book-designing and cover art) told the President 
> > that Preethi is temperamental (which i was at that time) and not a 
> > easy to work with (for Sushama i would not be easy to work with as I 
> > am conscientious and diligent and in those days was also the immature 
> > person who questioned Sushama'a habitual latecoming to work).. But 
> > Preethi says nothing except to shed tears of hurt and try to defend my 
> > name. I become aware by talking to others that when Sushama goes to 
> > the President's Office, she is told by the President that Preethi has 
> > spoken ill of her, while all i did was to shed tears and try and defend
> > > myself.
> > >
> > > It took me 5 years to become immune to the effects of Mrs Burnier's 
> > gossiping tendencies, but there are many others in the TS till now who 
> > believe her version of each other, and are reacting against each other 
> > without cause. This is the way the President keeps us divided, turning 
> > us against each other.
> > >
> > > And since we were talking about the President's becoming a puppet in 
> > the hands of the General Council, we might want to ask the further 
> > question of why are those who opposed the move -- I oppose it because 
> > I know that disenfranchising members from voting in a President 
> > amounts to taking away the freedom of members to choose a President -- 
> > opposing it? At the moment, the President is a puppet in the hands of 
> > Pedro Oliveira, Helen Jamieson, Keshwar Dastur, Radha Muthiah, Uma 
> > Nilakanta, Nandan Nilakanta, Subha Nilakanta, S.. Ramu, Dr A. Kannan, 
> > N. Muthuswamy, S. Ravindran, Shailendra Agrawal, S. Harihara Raghavan, 
> > Radha Harihara Raghavan, Breda and Dusan Zagar, Ricardo Lindemann, 
> > Marcos Resende, etc.. All of these people mentioned can twist the 
> > President according to their whim and fancy. It is quite common at 
> > Adyar, for example, for one to see that those who do not impress Mrs 
> > Uma Nilakanta, for example, will find that the next time they ask for 
> > permission
> > > to reside at Leadbeater Chambers, they will be refused that 
> > permission; not because they did something wrong -- which wrong can be 
> > corrected with compassion and understanding -- but solely because Uma 
> > Nilakanta did not like a person's face, or perhaps he/she did not give 
> > Uma Nilakanta the ego boost she needed. This is the case with most 
> > office-bearers at Adyar...and perhaps worldwide.
> > >
> > > So as far as puppet-Presidents are concerned, we now need to think, 
> > perhaps, which part of the General Council ought to have a say in what 
> > the President will do....those who have only vested interests in 
> > holding positions of power and authority, or those who have through 
> > their lifetime of work and diligence for the TS, shown that in 
> > addition to the vested interest, they also have an interest in the 
> > continuance of the TS as at least resembling the TS our Founders 
> > incepted...and have from time to time opposed the policies of the 
> > President when they thought that these policies would harm the future 
> > of Adyar and the TS worldwide.
> > >
> > > Fraternal greetings
> > >
> > > Preethi
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 22/6/09, MKR <mkr777@gmail. com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: MKR <mkr777@gmail. com>
> > > Subject: Theos-World Re: Anand's stand and the election
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > > Date: Monday, 22 June, 2009, 6:45 PM
> > >
> > > Dear Anand:
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > I think that what we know of the election is just the tip of the 
> > iceberg and
> > >
> > > we do not know all that went on behind the scenes. My hope is some 
> > day we
> > >
> > > may have more complete information about who did what and when and why?
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > I have been following closely all your msgs since the start of the 
> > election
> > >
> > > and you have been fair and helpful. Atleast you are posting msgs 
> > under your
> > >
> > > name and not under a pseudonym or thru a front. For those who falsely
> > >
> > > misunderstood your stand in the election, I suggest they read all your
> > >
> > > messages in the theos-talk archive. When you speak truth, you need 
> > not be
> > >
> > > concerned since you know in your heart of hearts that what you say 
> > is true.
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > All the discussions here started with the allegation about 
> > RadhaâEUR^(TM)s health -
> > >
> > > and that too laymanâEUR^(TM)s opinions that was shot down by 
> > professional opinions.
> > >
> > > The pity is that none of the leaders really foresaw the need to find and
> > >
> > > develop young leaders. As I have stated several times, every 
> > upcoming and
> > >
> > > growing organization are always lead by young or middle aged persons and
> > >
> > > not septuagenarians or octogenarians. My hope is that the 
> > electioneering and
> > >
> > > subsequent end-run secret attempt to disenfranchise all of us and seize
> > >
> > > control of appointment of the president, thus make the president a 
> > puppet is
> > >
> > > a wake up call for everyone. This may not be the last such attempt.
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > I also hope that those who have operated for years behind the scenes and
> > >
> > > kept members in the dark about the happenings understand how 
> > transparency is
> > >
> > > urgently needed to prevent unnecessary secrecy causing more serious
> > >
> > > problems, keeping in mind Master KHâEUR^(TM)s warning in his 1900 
> > letter.. It is not
> > >
> > > easy to get out of the secrecy mindset, especially if you have 
> > operated in
> > >
> > > that environment for too long.
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > Keep up the good work.
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > MKR
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > Visit www.thesophy. net and enjoy all the good stuff there.
> > >
> > > -
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 3:10 AM, Anand <AnandGholap@ gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Dear MKR,
> > >
> > > > Transparency and such conditions greatly depend on the International
> > >
> > > > President. As all offices like ES, masonry and TS Presidency are
> > >
> > > > concentrated in Mrs. Burnier, she has considerable control over 
> > what happens
> > >
> > > > in TS. Changes like transparency depend on her, to great extent. 
> > For many
> > >
> > > > years no General Secretary dared to challenge or question Mrs. 
> > Burnier for
> > >
> > > > the reasons Annie Besant mentioned and I elaborated further. It is 
> > only last
> > >
> > > > year that John Algeo unexpectedly gave tough fight in Presidential 
> > election.
> > >
> > > > Supporters of Mrs. Burnier won't like it. But such election 
> > actually is the
> > >
> > > > sign that democracy exists to some extent. Suppose John Algeo had 
> > announced
> > >
> > > > two years back that he would run for the Presient, would Mrs. Burnier
> > >
> > > > appoint John as Vice-President? I don't think she would have. It 
> > appears
> > >
> > > > that because he challenged her in Presidential election, he is not 
> > again
> > >
> > > > selected for any office at international level.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > In this Presidential election I was neutral toward both the 
> > candidates..
> > >
> > > > Somebody circulated wrong message that I supported John Algeo. 
> > That has made
> > >
> > > > some officers in Adyar TS to go against me. I don't give a damn 
> > because they
> > >
> > > > will be damned by karmic results of their own actions.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Anand Gholap
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. 
> > com>, MKR
> > >
> > > > <mkr777@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > How about Tsunami? Founders getting fed up with the bickering among
> > >
> > > > > theosophists!
> > >
> > > > > MKR
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 4:56 PM, <Drpsionic@ ..> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > I'm beginning to think we would all be better off if Adyar 
> > fell into
> > >
> > > > the
> > >
> > > > > > bay and the sharks, who are not vegetarians, could deal with the
> > >
> > > > problem.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Chuck the Heretic
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > In a message dated 6/21/2009 11:44:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > >
> > > > > > seeker_preethi@ ... <seeker_preethi% 40yahoo.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Hi MKR,
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Not surprised, but only shall we say disappointed, because we are
> > >
> > > > > > forgetting that the TS is meant to be a spiritual 
> > organization. Why
> > >
> > > > speak
> > >
> > > > > > such high
> > >
> > > > > > philosophy when in the end one has to lead life in the same 
> > manner as
> > >
> > > > > > those who do not speak it or have no knowledge of it? And why 
> > expect
> > >
> > > > then
> > >
> > > > > > that
> > >
> > > > > > one must be treated any different when one behaves in a manner 
> > that is
> > >
> > > > > > similar to the materialistic world around? Seems more like in 
> > the past
> > >
> > > > few
> > >
> > > > > > decades we have become more like the many religionists who 
> > hold on to
> > >
> > > > empty
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > words that don't translate into every day living. So then, 
> > perhaps, it
> > >
> > > > is
> > >
> > > > > > best
> > >
> > > > > > to break the walls of Adyar and just continue to live with the 
> > world --
> > >
> > > > > > which is not really bad at all -- as the world is. Why pretend 
> > to be
> > >
> > > > one
> > >
> > > > > > thing and then be something totally different?
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Just some thoughts.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Preethi
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > --- On Sun, 21/6/09, MKR <_mkr777@ <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_
> > >
> > > > > > (mailto:mkr777@ ... <mkr777%40gmail. com>) >
> > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > From: MKR <_mkr777@ <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_ (mailto:
> > >
> > > > > > mkr777@ <mkr777%40gmail. com>) >
> > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Adyar estate
> > >
> > > > > > To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- 
> > talk@yahoogro ups..com<theos- talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
> > >
> > > > <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>)
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Date: Sunday, 21 June, 2009, 1:51 AM
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > No one should be surprised. Did not one of the Masters stated that
> > >
> > > > human
> > >
> > > > > > nature is the same whether in Adyar or in London. This just 
> > proves it.
> > >
> > > > (At
> > >
> > > > > > least two people were not fighting or killing each other!)
> > >
> > > > > > ..
> > >
> > > > > > MKR
> > >
> > > > > > ..
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:58 AM, preethi muthiah
> > >
> > > > > > <seeker_preethi@ yahoo.com>wrote:
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > Last year in fact we had a general secretary forget her 
> > nuptial vows
> > >
> > > > and
> > >
> > > > > > > commit adultery in her marriage.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > >
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