Theos-Talk Archives (May 2009 Message tt00597)

Dear Frank,

You wrote:
"Regarding GdeP I come to a different conclusion. From his writings I 
come to the conclusion that he is the most brillant commentator of HPB, 
but not in the sense of an interpreter."

I'm not sure what you have in mind as too where we might differ 
concerning G. de P.  I would agree that G. de P. was a "brilliant 
commentator" on HPB's writings, and Judge's too.  But, I would also say 
that he made interpretations.  How could he not?  Whether I agree or 
disagree with his interpretations or whether those interpretations are 
right or wrong is a subject for a different discussion.  Nevertheless, I 
did previously mention that I personally like G. de P.'s writings.  One 
of our study groups is presently studying G. de P.'s  "Fountain Source 
of Occultism."  They are as excited about reading it as I was the first 
time I read it--years ago.   This is the first time we have used a 
Purucker text in our study groups, because I wanted them to be 
completely familiar with Blavatsky and Judge first. 

Best
Jerry





Frank Reitemeyer wrote:
>
>
> Dear Jerry,
>
> I understand your motive quite well.
> I am always angry when I read in the newspaper strange things with 
> theosophy allegedly teaches and then find as source Bailey or the like.
>
> Yes, we need to be alert not to intermix the theosophical teachings 
> and terms of the primary sources (which are to me the messengers aof 
> the Masters) with the me merely *interpretations* by lays as Steiner, 
> Besant, Leadbeater etc.
>
> I have learnt from your communication that we have as yet no written 
> proof that HPB used the term "outer Head" or "Outer Head".
> It seems, Judge and Besant were the first onces, who used the term in 
> print.
>
> Regarding GdeP I come to a different conlusion. From his writings I 
> come to the conclusion that he is the most brillant commentator of 
> HPB, but not in the sense of an interpreter.
> To me his arguments sound authentic. That he was the only successor 
> since HPB as yet who was allowed by Masters to talk in public of his 
> occult status (that of a Teacher and a Messenger) makes him somewhat 
> unique.
>
> But to conclude that in turn other teachers as Tingley or Judge did 
> not possessed the same teachings is poppycock to my humble understanding.
>
> As to the teachings of the 12 globes - this is to me a proof of the 
> authenticity of GdeP's teachings.
> Would he have taught but the same teachings as PUBLISHED by HPB, then 
> he would be regarded by me as one interpretator of many.
> But his teachings are not contradicting new inventions as that of 
> Steiner, Besant, Bailey, Leadbeater - which make them Pseudo theosophy 
> in HPB's mind - but GdeP's teachings are fully in accord with HPB and 
> to some extent logical extrapolations of it.
>
> The 12 globe model of GdeP does in no way contradict the 7 globe 
> teaching of HPB.
> On the contrary, would GdeP have stated that only 7 globes exists one 
> had to think of a blind or incompetence, since HPB stated that she was 
> not allowed to give out the teachings in its entirity and that in the 
> 20th century a chela would come who will give the complete teachings - 
> HPB clearly points here to GdeP.
>
> Furthermore you seem not to consider that HPB, when speaking of the 7 
> globes she refers only to the four lower planes.
> Neither said HPB that no other planes exist nor did she say that no 
> other globes on other planes exist.
>
> To assume that HPB did not know about globes on other planes except 
> those she refered too is in my humble opinion a blinkers mindset that 
> the ULT promotes.
>
> That theosophists believe that HPB knew nothing more than that what 
> she was allowed to publish or that all what we published is the last 
> analysis of theosophy is foolish and the main reason why the 
> Theosophical Movement today is lying in koma and spiritually nearly 
> dead, while at the same time there is so much need and thirst for 
> pukka teachings and I feel also a need for further, deeper teachings 
> that even GdeP was allowed to publish.
>
> There is so much information and verification from outside of the 
> movement (Baumann and his Shambhala research, Christian Lindtner and 
> his Lotus Sutra and Parinirvanasutra research etc. etc.) that shows 
> that the time is ripe for that information, but theosophists fail to 
> receive/understand/hold/spread this information.
> In other words: The Masters of wisdom and peace are not to be arrested 
> or blackmailed by theosophists, they do not want to make theosophy a 
> new dogma or a new religion, they just want to spread the truth, with 
> no regard from where this truth comes.
>
> The malfunction of theosophists is also implied by the fact that they 
> did not recognized the 1975 messenger and that they even today did not 
> recognize the messengers that HPB followed, no matter whether 
> he/she/it is called outer/visible/honoured Head or Mickey Mouse as you 
> know.
>
> While the insignia majestatis are not considered theosophy becomes 
> more and more the widow again, instead the other way round and new and 
> deeper teachings are taught and brought into practice.
>
> Frank
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Query regarding "Outer Head"
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> I agree with you that there is a lot of misinformation, as well as lack
> of information concerning HPB. This is precisely why I raised the
> question. There is a tendancy among many Theosophical historians, in
> and outside of Theosophical circles who have mixed together concepts and
> terms from the Besant period (and later) to the Blavatsky period of the
> Theosophical Society. The Book "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon" is a prime
> example of this kind of mixing of periods. Consequently, I point for
> raising this issue is not so much to determine who first used the title
> "Outer Head", but rather to raise awareness that Theosophical terms and
> titles arose in specific periods of the TM, and often changed meaning
> over time.
>
> Regarding G. de Purucker, I regard his writings as secondary to
> Blavatsky and Judge, whom he interpreted and took into his own
> direction. This is neither praise nor condemnation of G.de P.
> Personally, I like G. de P's writings, but it would be a mistake to, for
> instance, attribute his twelve globe system (7 sacred planets and 5
> mystery planets) to HPB. HPB may or may not have implied such a system,
> but it is clearly G. de P. who developed it. The same can be said for
> Besant, Leadbeater etc.
>
> In your example of G. de P's outer and inner rounds, I would make the
> same argument as above, though, if I correctly recall, Sinnett earlier
> used the terms "inner and outer rounds".
>
> Best
> Jerry
>
> Frank Reitemeyer wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Daniel and Jerry,
> >
> > although the question who first used the term O.H. may be of less
> > importance, as most theosophists have not even in dreams a basis
> > understanding of who and what HPB was, it comes to my mind that we
> > know less to nothing about what HPB really taught orally, except from
> > the few published instructions.
> > F.e. Hartmann reports that HPB often spoke of the coming soon great
> > war in Europe or about Paracelsus.
> > We have no documents about the term.
> >
> > OTOH, HPB states in E.S. instruction No. III, Esoteric Papers p. 419:
> >
> > "...that by "Teacher" I neither mean myself, as I am but the humble
> > mouthpiece of the true Teacher..."
> >
> > Similar we may not find the term "outer round" in the surviving
> > documents of HPB, so people who stick on HPB alone can argue that de
> > Purucker's teachings about outer rounds and inner rounds are a new
> > invention and not a revelation of HPB's teachings. And yet HPB in her
> > "last photo" refers to different cycles of messengers.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 8:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Query regarding "Outer Head"
> >
> > Hello Daniel,
> >
> > I haven't found such a document either. So, the recent statement
> > someone posted on this discussion board (which I quoted in my original
> > message) that, ..."Outer Head, a term coined by HPB for the responsible
> > messenger who is the teacher and the link." is probably incorrect.
> > Unless, of course, someone can find documentation to the contrary. Is
> > there anyone here who can furnish such documentation?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > danielhcaldwell wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Jerry,
> > >
> > > I don't think that HPB herself ever used that term: "Outer Head".
> > >
> > > I could be wrong but if so, where is the document showing that?
> > >
> > > If you browse through all the documents in ESOTERIC PAPERS OF MADAME
> > > BLAVATSKY, you will see that from the very beginning, HPB was referred
> > > to as Head of the Section, Head of the Esoteric Section or at least in
> > > one document as Head of the ES.
> > >
> > > This is found in documents signed by HPB, Judge and Olcott.
> > >
> > > The first time I can find "outer Head" used is in that Judge document
> > > I have already mentioned and you will see those two words again
> > > on page 326 in the new pledge issued after HPB's death in which
> > > Mr. Judge and Mrs. Besant were termed "the outer Heads of the School".
> > >
> > > One other relevant document I suppose would be the Preliminary
> > > Memorandum, see page 47 of ESOTERIC PAPERS.
> > >
> > > Here it is stated:
> > >
> > > "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of whom H.P.
> > > Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section."
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Daniel,
> > > >
> > > > Yes, your link works. The link went to p. 323 where Judge, 
> announcing
> > > > HPB's death, refers to her as ..."outer Head of the Section." 
> Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > If Judge capitalized both words, i.e. "Outer Head," I would take it
> > > as a
> > > > title. Otherwise, I think Judge meant that HPB's title was "Head
> > of the
> > > > [European ] Section [of the E.S], and he added the modifier of 
> "outer"
> > > > to distinguish her from her teacher, who might then be called the
> > inner
> > > > Head of the E.S. On the other hand, it could be a typo, and Judge
> > > > really meant to write "Outer Head." But if this is the case, and 
> if I
> > > > am correct that HPB never used the title "Outer Head", then it would
> > > > have been Judge who meant to coin that title for HPB. But when 
> Besant
> > > > and Judge jointly led the EST, they both took (at least in the
> > > > beginning) a much humbler pose and signed their joint circulars
> > without
> > > > titles.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, it is an interesting point, and is possible that Besant read
> > > > "outer Head" as "Outer Head" and assumed that title for herself 
> after
> > > > the Judge split in the Spring of 1895. Also, Katherine Tingley was
> > > > dubbed "Outer Head" by her followers in the May 21, 1896 Point Loma
> > > line
> > > > circular--a year after Judge died.
> > > >
> > > > However, my original question was: Where (if anywhere) does HPB
> > > > /herself/ use the title "Outer Head"? Have you anything on this?
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > > Jerry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > danielhcaldwell wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Jerry,
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, look here:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu> 
> <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu>>
> > <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu> 
> <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu>>>
> > > <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu> 
> <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu>>
> > <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu> 
> <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > > If this link works, it will go to p. 323 of my ESOTERIC PAPERS OF
> > > > > MADAME BLAVATSKY.
> > > > >
> > > > > See what Judge writes upon HPB's death.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if this would be considered a "title" but Judge
> > does use
> > > > > the two words together to describe HPB.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel
> > > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Friends,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have been unable to find any documents, inside or outside of
> > > the E.S.
> > > > > > where H.P.B. uses the title "Outer Head." As far as I have
> > been able
> > > > > > to determine, this title was first used by Annie Besant. Does
> > anyone
> > > > > > here know of any documents where H.P.B. uses the title "Outer
> > Head"?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best
> > > > > > Jerry
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In a recent post, someone wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "O.H. stand for Outer Head, a term coined by HPB for the
> > responsible
> > > > > > messenger who is the teacher and the link."
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
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> 


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