Theos-Talk Archives (May 2009 Message tt00586)

Hi Frank,

I agree with you that there is a lot of misinformation, as well as lack 
of information concerning HPB.  This is precisely why I raised the 
question.  There is a tendancy among many Theosophical historians, in 
and outside of Theosophical circles who have mixed together concepts and 
terms from the Besant period (and later) to the Blavatsky period of the 
Theosophical Society.   The Book "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon" is a prime 
example of this kind of mixing of periods.   Consequently, I point for 
raising this issue is not so much to determine who first used the title 
"Outer Head", but rather to raise awareness that Theosophical terms and 
titles arose in specific periods of the TM, and often changed meaning 
over time.  

Regarding G. de Purucker, I regard his writings as secondary to 
Blavatsky and Judge, whom he interpreted and took into his own 
direction.  This is neither praise nor condemnation of G.de P.  
Personally, I like G. de P's writings, but it would be a mistake to, for 
instance, attribute his twelve globe system (7 sacred planets and 5 
mystery planets) to HPB.  HPB may or may not have implied such a system, 
but it is clearly G. de P. who developed it.   The same can be said for 
Besant, Leadbeater etc.

In your example of G. de P's outer and inner rounds, I would make the 
same argument as above, though, if I correctly recall, Sinnett earlier 
used the terms "inner and outer rounds". 

Best
Jerry




Frank Reitemeyer wrote:
>
>
> Hi Daniel and Jerry,
>
> although the question who first used the term O.H. may be of less 
> importance, as most theosophists have not even in dreams a basis 
> understanding of who and what HPB was, it comes to my mind that we 
> know less to nothing about what HPB really taught orally, except from 
> the few published instructions.
> F.e. Hartmann reports that HPB often spoke of the coming soon great 
> war in Europe or about Paracelsus.
> We have no documents about the term.
>
> OTOH, HPB states in E.S. instruction No. III, Esoteric Papers p. 419:
>
> "...that by "Teacher" I neither mean myself, as I am but the humble 
> mouthpiece of the true Teacher..."
>
> Similar we may not find the term "outer round" in the surviving 
> documents of HPB, so people who stick on HPB alone can argue that de 
> Purucker's teachings about outer rounds and inner rounds are a new 
> invention and not a revelation of HPB's teachings. And yet HPB in her 
> "last photo" refers to different cycles of messengers.
>
> Frank
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 8:46 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Query regarding "Outer Head"
>
> Hello Daniel,
>
> I haven't found such a document either. So, the recent statement
> someone posted on this discussion board (which I quoted in my original
> message) that, ..."Outer Head, a term coined by HPB for the responsible
> messenger who is the teacher and the link." is probably incorrect.
> Unless, of course, someone can find documentation to the contrary. Is
> there anyone here who can furnish such documentation?
>
> Jerry
>
> danielhcaldwell wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Jerry,
> >
> > I don't think that HPB herself ever used that term: "Outer Head".
> >
> > I could be wrong but if so, where is the document showing that?
> >
> > If you browse through all the documents in ESOTERIC PAPERS OF MADAME
> > BLAVATSKY, you will see that from the very beginning, HPB was referred
> > to as Head of the Section, Head of the Esoteric Section or at least in
> > one document as Head of the ES.
> >
> > This is found in documents signed by HPB, Judge and Olcott.
> >
> > The first time I can find "outer Head" used is in that Judge document
> > I have already mentioned and you will see those two words again
> > on page 326 in the new pledge issued after HPB's death in which
> > Mr. Judge and Mrs. Besant were termed "the outer Heads of the School".
> >
> > One other relevant document I suppose would be the Preliminary
> > Memorandum, see page 47 of ESOTERIC PAPERS.
> >
> > Here it is stated:
> >
> > "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of whom H.P.
> > Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section."
> >
> > Daniel
> > http://hpb.cc
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Daniel,
> > >
> > > Yes, your link works. The link went to p. 323 where Judge, announcing
> > > HPB's death, refers to her as ..."outer Head of the Section." Thanks.
> > >
> > > If Judge capitalized both words, i.e. "Outer Head," I would take it
> > as a
> > > title. Otherwise, I think Judge meant that HPB's title was "Head 
> of the
> > > [European ] Section [of the E.S], and he added the modifier of "outer"
> > > to distinguish her from her teacher, who might then be called the 
> inner
> > > Head of the E.S. On the other hand, it could be a typo, and Judge
> > > really meant to write "Outer Head." But if this is the case, and if I
> > > am correct that HPB never used the title "Outer Head", then it would
> > > have been Judge who meant to coin that title for HPB. But when Besant
> > > and Judge jointly led the EST, they both took (at least in the
> > > beginning) a much humbler pose and signed their joint circulars 
> without
> > > titles.
> > >
> > > Anyway, it is an interesting point, and is possible that Besant read
> > > "outer Head" as "Outer Head" and assumed that title for herself after
> > > the Judge split in the Spring of 1895. Also, Katherine Tingley was
> > > dubbed "Outer Head" by her followers in the May 21, 1896 Point Loma
> > line
> > > circular--a year after Judge died.
> > >
> > > However, my original question was: Where (if anywhere) does HPB
> > > /herself/ use the title "Outer Head"? Have you anything on this?
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > >
> > > danielhcaldwell wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jerry,
> > > >
> > > > Well, look here:
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu> 
> <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu>>
> > <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu> 
> <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu <http://tinyurl.com/psmbsu>>>
> > > >
> > > > If this link works, it will go to p. 323 of my ESOTERIC PAPERS OF
> > > > MADAME BLAVATSKY.
> > > >
> > > > See what Judge writes upon HPB's death.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if this would be considered a "title" but Judge 
> does use
> > > > the two words together to describe HPB.
> > > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Daniel
> > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Friends,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been unable to find any documents, inside or outside of
> > the E.S.
> > > > > where H.P.B. uses the title "Outer Head." As far as I have 
> been able
> > > > > to determine, this title was first used by Annie Besant. Does 
> anyone
> > > > > here know of any documents where H.P.B. uses the title "Outer 
> Head"?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > > Jerry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In a recent post, someone wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "O.H. stand for Outer Head, a term coined by HPB for the 
> responsible
> > > > > messenger who is the teacher and the link."
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]