Theos-Talk Archives (February 2001 Message tt00142)

Dear Martin,

I've not had time to respond to your message of last week, and I see you
have sent a further one below.

Thanks for you kind comments in your post like week. Reading your post
below I see we have other things in common besides being students of HPB
(and I'm sure other greats), and liking Ken Wilber's works. I too have
spent many an hour on Vipassana retreats. I was fortunate to come across
Joseph Goldstein back in the 1970's (I begin to feel that much older
realising that is the last century!), when he paid a visit to England to
teach a retreat. Also Goenkaji and others as the years rolled on. Over the
years the practice and 'inner work' has changed as life and one's being
unfolds in different ways. I have been a student of HPB and the Mahatmas
since I was 17yrs of age. I read the 6 volume edition of the Secret
Doctrine at that time, didn't understand a single word of it(!) and yet knew
in my heart that something there, deep, true and unspeakable called me
onwards. I have followed that heart-felt note ever since, though not
without many ups and downs.

But coming back to the present, I must confess to being a bit puzzled by
your latest mails. I feel like someone who must have missed a part of the
conversation and find myself wondering "How did we get to this place in the
dialogue?"

I don't keep emails on Theos-Talk beyond a couple of weeks old. I have a
memory of Dal responding to a queery on Kundalini saying that it was only
mentioned once in the SD, and Dal believed there must be some good reason
for that. I believe he also stated that Theosophy emphasises right living,
purity of motive and intention, over the development of Kundalini and the
siddhis. I would have thought that in general terms this is a pretty
accurate statement.

I think it was here that you offered some passages from the Voice of the
Silence, which you believed showed Dal to be mistaken and perhaps overly
cautious in his approach. By the way, in a later post you also quoted HPB
(the Key to Theosophy) and Alexander Wilder to me to add support to what you
were saying. This is why I am slightly puzzled by your critical remarks of
people who use quotes.

My own feeling is that the VOICE, and the particular passage you quoted
from, actually supports what Dallas wrote. I don't get the sense that there
is anything Popish, or 'holier than thou' about acknowledging this point.
The emphasis on 'do the duty that is yours to do and that is before you',
"Gain Siddhis for thy future birth" seems to follow the general formula of
Mahayana Buddhist philosophy, as far as I can tell. For often we find
therein the formula 'purify your own nature, do your duty to others, don't
be put off by the suffering and hardships of this life, gain merit for thy
future births.'

This also seems to follow the formula Krishna gives to Arjuna about Karma
Yoga, ie just do your duty without attachment to the results - they will
unfold as they will in future births. MKR mentioned Krishnamurti today, I
just can't imagine him suggesting someone sit down to develop Kundalini and
the Siddhis. So I don't believe this can be dismissed as a puritanical view
held solely by some theosophical students of HPB on this list.

Of course, our inner nature develops as we continue in the work. Just
because we may aim to have our 'eye' on the larger picture that doesn't mean
the wheels don't turn within ourselves. We may need to meet with such
developments, if and when they come, with prudence and wisdom - just as you
say.

You raise some valuable points and brought a good 'edge' to this question.
Thanks. Personally, I felt sad to read some of your remarks, for I felt you
presented a very sour view of other members on the list, which wasn't
necessary to bring out the valid questions you raised.

I found the quotes you offered to be valuable additions to your thoughts.
However, I don't assume that because you may quote or refer to HPB, Wilber
or A. Wilder, that to you spirituality is a purely mental affair, or that
you believe 'the better the quote the more spiritual you think you are'.
Nor do I assume that because we have to use the written word in all our
communications here, that you must lead an armchair-theosophist's life, or
that your life and the lives of others on this list isn't one full of action
and true spiritual endeavour away from the computer terminal.

So, best wishes to you in all your endeavouring,

...Peter




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Leiderman [mailto:martinle@mindspring.com]
> Sent: 20 February 2001 05:14
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini Siddhis and HPB
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Thanks Dallas and Peter for the time in responding and forwarding
> Jerome's emai.
>
> The mystery of all this is that when in Theosophy you talk about
> chakras, kundalini, psychic, and the same, immediately our theosophical
> friends turn in something like the Pope - preaching to all the negative
> consequences. It is something like: 'you sinners' do not have the
> spiritual height nor the ethical depth to do anything . . . . And on
> the same token they recommend endless book reading, and spirituality
> is refer and exalted if the person is able to quote various paragraphs
> from the same 'few' books. The better quote the higher in the Path of
> the heart. Oh wow . . . I think the more we quote the more
> mental/psychic we are. The Eye Doctrine. Look at the mental
> building/structure created and the sad is we ended up believing that we
> are what we can quote, when the work is in benefiting humanity and the
> progress in the inner Path of the Heart which in my humble opinion is
> not in negating the progress but in renouncing to the fruit of the
> merits. In building the Nirmanakaya body. But this maybe too esoteric
> for some of you. Let me know your opinion on this last part of the
> paragraph.
>
> And no my dear Jerome I am not that Martin that you quote "If you are
> the Martin with as much background in theosophy..." I have seen
> beautiful people . . . well I don't think you can relate dear friend.
> Probably you don't even meditate, correct me if I am wrong.
>
> And my dear Jerome, I stopped 'smelling the flowers' long time ago, with
> all the work I just don't have the time. To end this thought reading
> books, and gather in meetings about reading more books with the purpose
> of show some understanding by tying all the quotes you can come up with
> . . . wow . . .is only a small part of the journey. The greatest part
> of the journey is the direct apprehension of the 'nothingness' which can
> be done through meditation . . . And in this there many approaches, my
> favorite Vipassana . . . and that is all. I speak from the heart and
> experience guided of course from those great Teaching HPB and others
> brought to us. But if I have not have a direct experience with it . . .
> who am I to quote as an authority???
>
> Love you all
>
> Martin
>
> dalval14@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Monday, February 19, 2001
> >
> > Dear Friends
> >
> > Another correspondent would like to offer Martin L. the following
> > to consider:
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> > =====================================
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerome Wheeler [mailto:ultinla@juno.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 3:23 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Kundalini Siddhis and HPB
> >
> > Since I am not on theos-talk, perhaps this might be forwarded to
> > Martin
> > Liederman-------
> >
> > ======================
> > Sunday Feb 18 2001
> >
> > Dear Sir, pardon my interlocutor status, but with your indulgence
> > I will
> > make a comment---------
> >
> > There is a higher and a lower kundalini. It works all the time!!
> >
> > However, to transform upward requires following the discipline
> > outlined
> > in the VOS. The first big hurdle is to adopt and plant in life
> > the
> > desire to serve others more than ourselves. That's a hard one to
> > achieve
> > for usually we go into these things tainted by the self-growth
> > syndrome.
> > However, if one tries to apply the discipline of the V.O.S. even
> > that
> > problem will
> >
> > (1) be clearly exposed to the student inside their own nature so
> > they
> > can no longer dodge the issue and
> >
> > (2) gradually begin to wane and weaken
> >
> > In due time there will occur exactly what the VOICE says: the
> > World
> > Mother or Kundalini will rise to the Heart. Leave it alone, take
> > note,
> > but do nothing.
> >
> > Keep on trying to intensify your love of humanity and desire to
> > grasp at
> > every opportunity of service that comes your way ---- and, keep
> > on with
> > the daily meditation. In due time it will do EXACTLY what the
> > VOICE
> > says: rise to the sixth. (the middle region, the place between
> > thine eyes...)
> >
> > But with no service and no clarification of our motive; no
> > strengthening
> > of our will, HOW IS THIS GOING TO HAPPEN?? If by "cultish" you
> > mean
> > something that includes very, very, few, then I agree it is most
> > distinctly cultish. Most persons in this day and age have other
> > priorities for their "spare time," and the discipline outlined in
> > the
> > Voice will take all of that and then some!!!
> >
> > The lower kills one morally, and quite often even physically, for
> > instead
> > of taking you to the sky in a whirlwind raised by your own
> > efforts, it
> > will take you to the center of the earth---loose and astray on
> > Lunar
> > Path.
> >
> > If you are the Martin with as much background in theosophy as I
> > think you
> > have, then surely you must have seen and experienced pilgrims
> > with the
> > insane stare and gibberish of those who believe in the unseen and
> > abnormal but fail to transcend an intense sense of separateness
> > before
> > beginning to dabble in magic. Psychic Groups that I have known,
> > known
> > of, and read about are almost invariably centered by a Pilgrim
> > who
> > eventually CLAIMS TO BE GOD!! When some supposedly spiritual
> > activity is
> > based on SEX, and/or POWER, and/or MONEY---beware.
> >
> > SERVICE and SELF-SACRIFICE will grow for us a clean set of eyes
> > not only
> > to see the flaw in the above, but the seeds of these in ourself.
> > No one
> > is without them. According to Patanjali to have "burnt the seed"
> > of such
> > is a far advanced step on the Path; or asThe VOICE puts it: "Ah,
> > great
> > is he who is the slayer of desire; still greater he in whom the
> > Self
> > Divine has slain the very knowledge of desire."
> >
> > Far more interesting than Kundalini is the power of Kriyasakti.
> > Now
> > there's a Siddhi worth writing home about!!
> > have a nice day, and don't forget to smell the flowers,
> >
> > jerome
> > Offered by Dallas for Jerome
>
>
>
>
>
>