Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00084)

Perhaps.

Hume wrote in the Letter 14:
"That the highest people now on earth belong to the first sub-race of the fifth race, the majority to the seventh sub-race of the fourth race but with remnants of the other sub-races of the fourth race and the seventh sub-race of the third race. Pray set us quite right on this. "

And Master KH did not say anything against it, unless the Fascimile version with diagrams can tell us something else. Where is the original today or is there anyone at the forum with a fascimile version?

Because KH - in letter 14 referring to an absent figure in the online version - said :
"This figure roughly represents the development of humanity on a planet -- say our earth. Man evolves in seven major or root-races; 49 minor races; and the subordinate races or offshoots, the branchlet races coming from the latter are not shown."
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-14.htm


- - -

HPB and Master says that there also are advanced 5th round beings incarnating from time to time, although not many. Maybe I can find quotes for both of them.

On rootrace. Both HPB, KH, and a number of advanced theosophist agree upon that we western europeans right now are the 5th. Root-race. - Subrace / offshoot (as KH use the words) discussion is a mix because there are more than one rootrace on this planet. 
Yet I will claim, that a number of 4th Rootrace beings now incarnate as 5th Rootrace beings, because the overall level of intelligence on the planet has been on the raise since HPB and Hume departed. People are more intelligent average speaking.


Master KH also said in the previous letter 14 to Hume (and also Sinnett?):

"4th round. -- Intellect has an enormous development in this round. The dumb races will acquire our human speech, on our globe, on which from the 4th race language is perfected and knowledge in physical things increases. At this half-way point of the fourth round, Humanity passes the axial point of the minor manwantaric circle. (Moreover, at the middle point of every major or root race evolution of each round, man passes the equator of his course on that planet, the same rule applying to the whole evolution or the seven rounds of the minor Manwantara -- 7 rounds divided by 2 = 3 1/2 rounds). At this point then the world teems with the results of intellectual activity and spiritual decrease. In the first half of the fourth race, sciences, arts, literature and philosophy were born, eclipsed in one nation, reborn in another. Civilization and intellectual development whirling in septenary cycles as the rest; while it is but in the latter half that the spiritual Ego will begin its real struggle with body and mind to manifest its transcendental powers. Who will help in the forthcoming gigantic struggle? Who? Happy the man who helps a helping hand. "
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-14.htm







Frank wrote:
"I have been a reader of Theosophical literature for a number of 
years and have understood from the teachings that we are now in the 
fifth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race. But I read in Dr. de 
Purucker's illuminating book, FUNDAMENTALS OF THE ESOTERIC 
PHILOSOPHY, that this is a mistake; that we have not even reached the 
middle of the fourth Sub-Race; and that earlier teaching has been an 
intentional blind on this point. "

And I agree about the 5th rootrace and 4th subrace thought, on the latter part of the above quote. And so does Master and HPB if we read the quotes in their time. Yet now we are some 120 years later in time, than Letter 14, and the majority of hjumanity are accoring to my view tipping towards the 5th rootrace and various other subraces. Explain why I cannot. It has to be experienced on one level or the other. And I am prepared on that I might be corrected - because I do not claim infallibility on this.

The first part of the quote by Frank is not a square yes and no. The majority of humanity has according to me - not - reached that level (5th rootrace and 5th sub-race) yet as far as I know and understand the cycles and their lengths. On this I can agree with Frank. But not about that most people are saying this within theosophical circles.

HPB and Master KH was not saying it. The quotes in this email should clearly reveal this.
The length of the cycles quoted tells me, that we are not there yet.



HPB said:
"The Aryan races, for instance, now varying from dark brown, almost black, red-brown-yellow, down to the whitest creamy colour, are yet all of one and the same stock - the Fifth Root-Race - and spring from one single progenitor, called in Hindu exotericism by the generic name of Vaivasvata Manu: the latter, remember, being that generic personage, the Sage, who is said to have lived over 18,000,000 years ago, and also 850,000 years ago - at the time of the sinking of the last remnants of the great continent of Atlantis* (See the Root and Seed Manus further on), and who is said to live even now in his mankind. (Vide at the end of this Stanza, "The Primeval Manus of Humanity.") " 

---

"the archaic teachings, moreover, telling us that, during the middle period of the Lemuro-Atlantean Race, three and a half Races after the Genesis of man, the Earth, man, and everything on the Globe was of a still grosser and more material nature, while such things as corals and some shells were still in a semi-gelatinous, astral state. The cycles that intervened since then, have already carried us onward, on the opposite ascending arc, some steps toward our dematerialization, as the spiritualists would say. The Earth, ourselves, and all things have softened since then - aye, even our brains. But it has been objected by some theosophists that an ethereal Earth even some 15, or 20,000,000 years ago, does not square with Geology, which teaches us that winds blew, rains fell, waves broke " etc. etc....
(vol. 2, p. 249-250)
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume2.htm

---

So now, I wonder if Frank would care to explain why there was any blinds if any about a 5th Root-race and 5th subrace? Did he actually think 5th Root-race and 1th subrace?



M. Sufilight




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:38 PM
  Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race


  Dear Frank,

  1) I suppose the leaflet is an image. I do not have it.

  2) Yes, you're right: K.H. seems to concur with Hume

  3) The quote you gave might help to make things easier to formulate
  the issue with letters and numbers:

  > a.. I, II, III, IV, etc., are the seven major or root-races. 
  > b.. 1, 2, 3, etc., are the minor races. 
  > c.. a, a, a, are the subordinate or offshoot races.

  I proceed with the understanding that we all agree that we're in the
  4th Round and that the issue of 'offshoot races' is not on the table,
  though it seems to come into play with Frank's take on the Hume/K.H.
  position. 

  Please correct me if wrong, but the different views about where the
  bulk of humanity is to be classified seem to be as follows:

  HPB's interpretation: V-5

  Chaterji & Halloway: V-5 (thanks Konstantin)

  The Adyar interpretation: V-5

  The Pasadena interpretation: V-4

  Humes' interpretation: IV-7

  K.H.: IV-7

  My interpretation of Frank's interpretation of the Hume/K.H. position:
  V-4-g (where root-race IV is seen as sub-race 4, and sub-race 7 as
  offshoot g. This is of course debatable, but maybe the only way to
  press the Hume/KH position into the Pasadena position)

  Makes sense?

  Govert

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen"
  <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
  >
  > Yes.
  > And I understand that KH is not against Humes view?
  > But, can we have the fascimile version, which are showing the
  flyleaves mentioned by KH?
  > 
  > 
  > "Please examine carefully the few additional things I give you on
  the fly-leaves. Damodar has received orders to send you No. 3 of
  Terry's letters -- a good material for pamphlet No. 3 of Fragments of
  Occult Truth. 
  > This figure roughly represents the development of humanity on a
  planet -- say our earth. Man evolves in seven major or root-races; 49
  minor races; and the subordinate races or offshoots, the branchlet
  races coming from the latter are not shown. 
  > 
  > The arrow indicates the direction taken by the evolutionary impulse. 
  > 
  > a.. I, II, III, IV, etc., are the seven major or root-races. 
  > b.. 1, 2, 3, etc., are the minor races. 
  > c.. a, a, a, are the subordinate or offshoot races. 
  > d.. N, the initial and terminal point of evolution on the planet. 
  > e.. S, the axial point where the development equilibrates or
  adjusts itself in each race evolution. 
  > f.. E, the equatorial points where in the descending arc intellect
  overcomes spirituality and in the ascending arc spirituality outstrips
  intellect. 
  > (N.B. -- The above in D.K.'s hand -- the rest in K.H.'s. -- A.P.S.) 
  > 
  > P.S. -- In his hurry D.J.K. has made his figure incline somewhat out
  of the perpendicular but it will serve as a rough memorandum. He drew
  it to represent development on a single planet; but I have added a
  word or two to make it apply as well (which it does) to a whole
  manwantaric chain of worlds. 
  > 
  > K.H. "
  > 
  > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-14.htm
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > M. Sufilight
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Govert Schuller 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:11 AM
  > Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
  > 
  > 
  > Dear Morton,
  > 
  > I'm sorry to point out that the first quote you gave was O.A. Hume's
  > uncorrected understanding of the issue, not K.H. explanation to
  Sinnett. 
  > 
  > It's from ML: 14, being "Letter from K.H. Answering Queries. Received
  > by A.O.H., July 9th, 1882." 
  > 
  > The second quote is from the same letter and is by K.H., but does not
  > clarify the issue. 
  > 
  > Govert
  > 
  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen"
  > <global-theosophy@> wrote:
  > >
  > > Maybe this could help?
  > > 
  > > 
  > > Master KH's letter to AP Sinnett, juli 1882:
  > > "That the highest people now on earth belong to the first sub-race
  > of the fifth race, the majority to the seventh sub-race of the fourth
  > race but with remnants of the other sub-races of the fourth race and
  > the seventh sub-race of the third race. Pray set us quite right on
  > this. "...etc. etc.
  > > 
  > > ---
  > > "4th round. -- Intellect has an enormous development in this round.
  > The dumb races will acquire our human speech, on our globe, on which
  > from the 4th race language is perfected and knowledge in physical
  > things increases. At this half-way point of the fourth round, Humanity
  > passes the axial point of the minor manwantaric circle. (Moreover, at
  > the middle point of every major or root race evolution of each round,
  > man passes the equator of his course on that planet, the same rule
  > applying to the whole evolution or the seven rounds of the minor
  > Manwantara -- 7 rounds divided by 2 = 3 1/2 rounds). At this point
  > then the world teems with the results of intellectual activity and
  > spiritual decrease. In the first half of the fourth race, sciences,
  > arts, literature and philosophy were born, eclipsed in one nation,
  > reborn in another. Civilization and intellectual development whirling
  > in septenary cycles as the rest; while it is but in the latter half
  > that the spiritual Ego will begin its real struggle with body and mind
  > to manifest its transcendental powers. Who will help in the
  > forthcoming gigantic struggle? Who? Happy the man who helps a helping
  > hand. 
  > > 
  > > 5th Round. -- The same relative development, and the same struggle
  > continues. "
  > > 
  > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-14.htm
  > > 
  > > 
  > > Is there a fascimile somewhere?
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > M. Sufilight
  > > 
  > > 
  > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > > From: Frank Reitemeyer 
  > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:48 PM
  > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
  > > 
  > > 
  > > Govert wrote:
  > > 
  > > From the quotes below (the 'dead letter' interpretation) it
  looks like
  > > we are in Root-race 5 (Aryan), Sub-race 5 (Teutonic). Two quotes
  from
  > > HPB and one by 'Alpha' reflecting the understanding of a member.
  This
  > > understanding is also reflected in a little graph by Jinarajadasa,
  > > which some might call the Besant-Leadbeater interpretation, but
  might
  > > very well be in accordance with HPB. See:
  > > http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/lessons15.htm
  > > -------------------
  > > 
  > > Frank answers:
  > > Thank you, Govert, for the link to the graph of the
  Besant-Leadbeater 
  > > interpretation of the doctrine of the races.
  > > From where to they have the names of the races? From HPB?
  > > From their "Maha-Chohan"? Or from the Logos?
  > > 
  > > -------------------
  > > 
  > > Govert wrote:
  > > 
  > > If HPB contradicted herself, and if to save her from the charge of
  > > inconsistency by saying that some of her statements were blinds, in
  > > what way are we to reconcile these contradictions? How do we know
  > > what's a blind and what not? And if a contradiction is found and one
  > > of the statements therefore allegedly a blind, does that make the
  > > subject more important?
  > > 
  > > -------------------
  > > 
  > > Frank answers:
  > > 
  > > I hope, that HPB contradicted herself, as Europeans still greatest 
  > > metaphysicial - if not theosophist - Hegel says, that a
  > contradiction is 
  > > always the sign of the truth and th enon-contradiction the sign of
  > the 
  > > untruth.
  > > How do we know? Simply by studying the mystery language.
  > > 
  > > I don't think that a blind comes always with a contradiction, but
  > I hope 
  > > that HPB used contradictions to make it easier for lay-chelas to
  > understand.
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >


  

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