Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00086)

Sorry. Message below should have been addressed to Morten, not Frank.
Discussion in this group goes swift. Hard to keep a grip on it. Govert

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Frank,
> 
> 1) I suppose the leaflet is an image. I do not have it.
> 
> 2) Yes, you're right: K.H. seems to concur with Hume
> 
> 3) The quote you gave might help to make things easier to formulate
> the issue with letters and numbers:
> 
> >   a.. I, II, III, IV, etc., are the seven major or root-races. 
> >   b.. 1, 2, 3, etc., are the minor races. 
> >   c.. a, a, a, are the subordinate or offshoot races.
> 
> I proceed with the understanding that we all agree that we're in the
> 4th Round and that the issue of 'offshoot races' is not on the table,
> though it seems to come into play with Frank's take on the Hume/K.H.
> position. 
> 
> Please correct me if wrong, but the different views about where the
> bulk of humanity is to be classified seem to be as follows:
> 
> HPB's interpretation: V-5
> 
> Chaterji & Halloway: V-5 (thanks Konstantin)
> 
> The Adyar interpretation: V-5
> 
> The Pasadena interpretation: V-4
> 
> Humes' interpretation: IV-7
> 
> K.H.: IV-7
> 
> My interpretation of Frank's interpretation of the Hume/K.H. position:
> V-4-g (where root-race IV is seen as sub-race 4, and sub-race 7 as
> offshoot g. This is of course debatable, but maybe the only way to
> press the Hume/KH position into the Pasadena position)
> 
> Makes sense?
> 
> Govert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen"
> <global-theosophy@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes.
> > And I understand that KH is not against Humes view?
> > But, can we have the fascimile version, which are showing the
> flyleaves mentioned by KH?
> > 
> > 
> > "Please examine carefully the few additional things I give you on
> the fly-leaves. Damodar has received orders to send you No. 3 of
> Terry's letters -- a good material for pamphlet No. 3 of Fragments of
> Occult Truth. 
> > This figure roughly represents the development of humanity on a
> planet -- say our earth. Man evolves in seven major or root-races; 49
> minor races; and the subordinate races or offshoots, the branchlet
> races coming from the latter are not shown. 
> > 
> > The arrow indicates the direction taken by the evolutionary impulse. 
> > 
> >   a.. I, II, III, IV, etc., are the seven major or root-races. 
> >   b.. 1, 2, 3, etc., are the minor races. 
> >   c.. a, a, a, are the subordinate or offshoot races. 
> >   d.. N, the initial and terminal point of evolution on the planet. 
> >   e.. S, the axial point where the development equilibrates or
> adjusts itself in each race evolution. 
> >   f.. E, the equatorial points where in the descending arc intellect
> overcomes spirituality and in the ascending arc spirituality outstrips
> intellect. 
> > (N.B. -- The above in D.K.'s hand -- the rest in K.H.'s. -- A.P.S.) 
> > 
> > P.S. -- In his hurry D.J.K. has made his figure incline somewhat out
> of the perpendicular but it will serve as a rough memorandum. He drew
> it to represent development on a single planet; but I have added a
> word or two to make it apply as well (which it does) to a whole
> manwantaric chain of worlds. 
> > 
> > K.H. "
> > 
> > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-14.htm
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > M. Sufilight
> > 
> > 
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Govert Schuller 
> >   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> >   Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:11 AM
> >   Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> > 
> > 
> >   Dear Morton,
> > 
> >   I'm sorry to point out that the first quote you gave was O.A. Hume's
> >   uncorrected understanding of the issue, not K.H. explanation to
> Sinnett. 
> > 
> >   It's from ML: 14, being "Letter from K.H. Answering Queries.
Received
> >   by A.O.H., July 9th, 1882." 
> > 
> >   The second quote is from the same letter and is by K.H., but
does not
> >   clarify the issue. 
> > 
> >   Govert
> > 
> >   --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen"
> >   <global-theosophy@> wrote:
> >   >
> >   > Maybe this could help?
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > Master KH's letter to AP Sinnett, juli 1882:
> >   > "That the highest people now on earth belong to the first sub-race
> >   of the fifth race, the majority to the seventh sub-race of the
fourth
> >   race but with remnants of the other sub-races of the fourth race and
> >   the seventh sub-race of the third race. Pray set us quite right on
> >   this. "...etc. etc.
> >   > 
> >   > ---
> >   > "4th round. -- Intellect has an enormous development in this
round.
> >   The dumb races will acquire our human speech, on our globe, on which
> >   from the 4th race language is perfected and knowledge in physical
> >   things increases. At this half-way point of the fourth round,
Humanity
> >   passes the axial point of the minor manwantaric circle.
(Moreover, at
> >   the middle point of every major or root race evolution of each
round,
> >   man passes the equator of his course on that planet, the same rule
> >   applying to the whole evolution or the seven rounds of the minor
> >   Manwantara -- 7 rounds divided by 2 = 3 1/2 rounds). At this point
> >   then the world teems with the results of intellectual activity and
> >   spiritual decrease. In the first half of the fourth race, sciences,
> >   arts, literature and philosophy were born, eclipsed in one nation,
> >   reborn in another. Civilization and intellectual development
whirling
> >   in septenary cycles as the rest; while it is but in the latter half
> >   that the spiritual Ego will begin its real struggle with body
and mind
> >   to manifest its transcendental powers. Who will help in the
> >   forthcoming gigantic struggle? Who? Happy the man who helps a
helping
> >   hand. 
> >   > 
> >   > 5th Round. -- The same relative development, and the same struggle
> >   continues. "
> >   > 
> >   > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-14.htm
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > Is there a fascimile somewhere?
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > M. Sufilight
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   > From: Frank Reitemeyer 
> >   > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> >   > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:48 PM
> >   > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > Govert wrote:
> >   > 
> >   > From the quotes below (the 'dead letter' interpretation) it
> looks like
> >   > we are in Root-race 5 (Aryan), Sub-race 5 (Teutonic). Two quotes
> from
> >   > HPB and one by 'Alpha' reflecting the understanding of a member.
> This
> >   > understanding is also reflected in a little graph by Jinarajadasa,
> >   > which some might call the Besant-Leadbeater interpretation, but
> might
> >   > very well be in accordance with HPB. See:
> >   > http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/lessons15.htm
> >   > -------------------
> >   > 
> >   > Frank answers:
> >   > Thank you, Govert, for the link to the graph of the
> Besant-Leadbeater 
> >   > interpretation of the doctrine of the races.
> >   > From where to they have the names of the races? From HPB?
> >   > From their "Maha-Chohan"? Or from the Logos?
> >   > 
> >   > -------------------
> >   > 
> >   > Govert wrote:
> >   > 
> >   > If HPB contradicted herself, and if to save her from the charge of
> >   > inconsistency by saying that some of her statements were
blinds, in
> >   > what way are we to reconcile these contradictions? How do we know
> >   > what's a blind and what not? And if a contradiction is found
and one
> >   > of the statements therefore allegedly a blind, does that make the
> >   > subject more important?
> >   > 
> >   > -------------------
> >   > 
> >   > Frank answers:
> >   > 
> >   > I hope, that HPB contradicted herself, as Europeans still
greatest 
> >   > metaphysicial - if not theosophist - Hegel says, that a
> >   contradiction is 
> >   > always the sign of the truth and th enon-contradiction the sign of
> >   the 
> >   > untruth.
> >   > How do we know? Simply by studying the mystery language.
> >   > 
> >   > I don't think that a blind comes always with a contradiction, but
> >   I hope 
> >   > that HPB used contradictions to make it easier for lay-chelas to
> >   understand.
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >   >
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>