Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00313)

The problem is that things like loyalty, honor, courage and altruism are  
basic Victorian values that educated people now, even hearing the words, will  
fall down laughing.  They are precisely the things that stand in the way  
because they represent ways of dealing with people in a  different era.  What we are 
dealing is not a social system but a means  of getting to the root of the 
nature of cosmos itself.
 
Chuck the Heretic
 
 
In a message dated 10/13/2008 10:52:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
adelasie@sbcglobal.net writes:

 
 
 
I see. Well, maybe we could consider making a distinction between the  
message and the messenger. Theosophy may have emerged in this cycle 
in  trappings of Victorianism (or the American version thereof) but in  
previous cycles it had other raiment. However, the outside 
appearance  is not very important compared to the inner essence. It is 
easy for us to  become entangled in the trailing clouds of whatever 
era we are  considering, but when we blow aside some of the mist, we 
might find some  useful concepts, whether we call it Theosophy, 
Buddhiam, Christianity,  Hinduism, or whatever. Things like loyalty, 
honor, courage, altruism.  These essentials are what connect us, not 
the illusionary differences.  

Adelasie

On 13 Oct 2008 at 1:25, _Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com)   
wrote:

> 
> I am being deadly serious.
> 
>  Theosophy was created in the late 19th century and as such 
>  internalized the
> culture of that time. But the culture has changed  radically. Consider 
> that
> when the SD was written, there was  no Uncertainty Principal, no 
> quantum
> mechanics, no general  relativity. They never heard of the human 
> genome. And the
>  culture was radically different, in ways that if one of the founders 
>  landed
> in our time they would not recognize it and they would be  shocked 
> beyond
> belief.
> 
> The values that  society holds dear are vastly different. We little 
> use for
>  the ideals of the Victorians and laugh at their concepts of purity 
>  and honor.
> The Master KH could call one of his colleagues, "the  sternest of the
> Khobilligans, Khobilligans,<WBR>" and not be greeted with laughter  
> was when
> someone read it in the Olcott  library nearly 20 years ago. Stern is 
> not a virtue
> to us, it  is an invitation to get a pie in the face.
> 
> Yet our brethren  hold onto antiquated notions of society, quote 
> language
> that  no one can make sense of any more and think that psuedo-sanskrit 
>  will
> impress people. And we do not have to concern ourselves with the  
> occasional
> censorious buffoon who somehow thinks that his  objections matter.
> 
> We need to get rid of the kindling, the  deadwood, the things that 
> just have
> not worked. The proper  way to look at the old material is not to just 
> quote
> it and  expect everyone to assent. It is to look at it and ask, is this
> really  true, or what was the Master drinking when he came up with 
> that  one?
> 
> And thus the truth of the matter is that I really do not  care what the
> Masters said, or what the SD says in and of itself.  Those are just 
> words and we
> have gazillions of words to  choose from. We need to question question
> question and not stop  questioning because some moron is impressed 
> with an imbecile
>  like Milarepa or thinks that every word from the Mahatmas is a golden 
>  dripping
> from the nose of God.
> 
> And we need most of  all to get past this notion that the internal 
> politics
> of the  TS somehow matters. who cares who is in charge of mowing the 
> lawn  at
> Adyar?
> 
> Can I go too far? Not in this  lifetime.
> 
> Chuck, who is very much the Heretic
>  
> In a message dated 10/12/2008 7:44:46 P.M. Central Daylight  Time,
> _adelasie@sbcglobal.ade_ (mailto:adelasie@sbcglobal.net)   writes:
> 
> ROFL...or... ROFL...or R<WBR>could it  be u r bein
> 
> On 12 Oct 2008 at 11:47, __Drpsionic@aol._Dr_ (mailto:_Drpsionic@aol.Drp) _ 
>  (mailto:_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) )
>  wrote:
> 
> >
> > Actually I love it when people get  steamed at my ideas. It is sort 
> of
> > like
> >  they suddenly get "kick me" signs taped to their backs.
> >
>  > The problem with some folks is that they think that being a
> >  Theosophist is
> > like being some damned fool Baptist, and everyone  sits around
> > agreeing with
> > everything. No no no. You  have to question everything, including 
> your
> > fundamental  premises. The Masters are not to be worshipped, their
> > words are  not
> > holy writ. The mere fact that the Chohan said something does  not 
> make
> > it true.
> > It only means that he was  in a rotten mood when he wrote it.
> >
> > There are times  that if I had my way I would burn all those musty 
> old
> >  books
> > because there are times when it seems that would be the  only way to
> > get light
> > out of them.
>  >
> > In any event, I will continue to follow my old philosophy  of
> > rhetoric, which
> > says that if someone says you  have gone too far, you have not yet
> > gone far
> >  enough.
> >
> > Chuck the Heretic
> >
>  >
> > In a message dated 10/12/2008 9:33:04 A.M. Central Daylight  Time,
> > __mkr777@gmail._mk_ (mailto:_mkr777@gmail.mkr) _ 
(mailto:_mkr777@gmail.mkr_ (mailto:mkr777@gmail.com) ) writes:
>  >
> > Welcome to the group. I am not the moderator either.
>  >
> > This group has been around for more than a decade and it  takes time
> > for
> > newbees to settle down here. From  time to time you will find gems
> > here that
> > you cannot  find anywhere else. Patience will pay heavy rewards in 
> the
>  > long
> > run.
> >
> > mkr
> >
>  > On 10/12/08, alex <_alexmorgan777@_alexmorgan7
> >  (mailto:_alexmorgan 7@alexmorgan7_ 
> (mailto:_alexmorgan777@alexmorgan7_ (mailto:alexmorgan777@hotmail.com) )  )
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Is this funny for  everyone here?
> > > I'm not sure why the moderator is passively  ok with this and even
> > > allows you to showoff your website. Is  he still alive? I don't 
> know
> > > about others but I'm  starting to get tired of deleting your 
> messages
> > >  from my inbox.
> > > This crap is not Theosophy, this is just  bored goofing around that
> > > spoils things for others, and  makes the new comer puke on the 
> whole
> > > group and  leave.
> > > The Unity of Mind is lacking in here already, I don't  think we 
> need
> > > to see this nonsense anymore.
>  > >
> > > Chuck, why don't you try to be like Milarepa and  turn things 
> around,
> > > become the first Enlightened  man in modern times to abandon the 
> path
> > > of sorcery  and black magic?
> > > Think about it Chuck, you will increase the  membership, peoples
> > > participation and get all our votes if  you choose to run and
> > > promulgate the DOCTRINE of the  Buddhas!
> > > What do you think? :)
> > >
>  > > Alex
> > >
> > > --- In _theos-talk@ --- In  _t --- In _theo
> > __talk@yahoogroups._ta_ (mailto:_talk@yahoogroups.tal) _  
(mailto:_talk@yahoogroups.tal_ (mailto:talk@yahoogroups.com) ) )
>  > <theos-talk%theos-talk%<WBthe>,
> > >  Drpsionic@.. Drpsionic@.
> > > >
> > > > Ok, the  very first thing we have to do is get rid of those
> >  obsolete
> > > ideas of
> > > > purity,  self-denial, charity, etc and concentrate on finding 
> what
>  > > really is
> > > > going on.
> > >  >
> > > > Chuck the heretic
> > > >
>  > > >
> > > > In a message dated 10/11/2008 4:06:19  P.M. Central Daylight 
> Time,
> > > > danielhcaldwell@  danielhcal
> > > >
> > > >
> > >  >
> > > >
> > > > "For our doctrines to  practically react on the so called moral
> > code
> > >  > or the ideas of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, 
>  etc.,
> > > we
> > > > have to preach and  popularise a knowledge of theosophy."
> > > >
> > >  > Quoted from a letter from the Chohan
> > > > ____http://www.theosocih_ (http://www.theosoci_/)  
(_http://www.theosocih_ (http://www.theosoci/) )
> __http://www.http:http://www.http_ (http://www.http:http://wwwhttp:)   
//wwhtt_ (_http://www.http:http://www_ (http://www.http://wwwhttp:)  
>  //_wwhttp://__ (wwhttp://_/) )
> > (__http://www.theosocih_ (http://www.theosoci_/)  (_http://www.theosocih_ 
(http://www.theosoci/) )
> __http://www.theoshtthttp://www._ (http://www.theoshtthttp://www.)   
_http://__ (http://_/)  
> (_http://www.theoshtthttp://www._ (http://www.theoshttp://wwhttp:)   
//www._) )
> > > > (___http://www.theosocih_ (http://www.theosoci_/)  
(_http://www.theosocih_ (http://www.theosoci/) )
> __http://www.theoshtthttp://www._ (http://www.theoshtthttp://www.)   
_http://__ (http://_/)  
> (_http://www.theoshtthttp://www._ (http://www.theoshttp://wwhttp:)   
//www._)
> > (__http://www.theosocih_ (http://www.theosoci_/)  (_http://www.theosocih_ 
(http://www.theosoci/) ) ety.org/pasadena/  
> ety.or
> ety.or
> > > >
> > > >  So exactly what do we preach and popularise?
> > > >
>  > > > Are there certain teachings that constitute this "theosophy"?  
> And
> > > if
> > > > so, what are these  teachings?
> > > >
> > > > And where do we find  these teachings?
> > > >
> > > > And how do we  learn about them and study them so that in turn we
> > > > can  "preach and popularise" them?
> > > >
> > > >  And who is "we"? The leaders of the TS? Elected officials of the
> >  > > TS? Any member of the TS?
> > > >
> > >  > And remember there is more than one TS or theosophical
> >  organization
> > > > or association.
> > >  >
> > > > Can non-members preach and popularise this  theosophy?
> > > >
> > > > And in this same  letter, the Chohan tells us:
> > > >
> > > >  ------------ ---- ---- ---- ----
> > > > The doctrine we  promulgate being the only true one, must, --
> > > > supported  by such evidence as we are preparing to give become
> > > >  ultimately triumphant as every other truth. Yet it is absolutely
> >  > > necessary to inculcate it gradually enforcing its theories,
>  > > > unimpeachable facts for those who know, with direct  inferences
> > > > deducted from and corroborated by the  evidence furnished by 
> modern
> > > > exact science....  Theos-sophia, Divine Wisdom...is a synonym of
> > > >  truth....
> > > > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ----
> >  > >
> > > > This is quite a CLAIM.
> > >  >
> > > > "The doctrine we promulgate being the only true  one...."
> > > >
> > > > So what is this  DOCTRINE that is "the ONLY true one" and where 
> can
> > >  we
> > > > find an exposition of this teaching?
> >  > >
> > > > Is it to be found in THE SECRET DOCTRINE  written by H.P.
> > Blavatsky?
> > > >
> >  > > Or can it be found in C.W. Leadbeater's and Annie Besant's  "Man,
> > > > Whence, How, and Whither: A Record of Clairvoyant  Investigation"
> > > >
> > > > Or in a book by  Alice Bailey? or....in a book by Elizabeth 
> Claire
> > >  > Prophet?
> > > >
> > > > If "we" are to  popularise a knowledge of Theosophy, what exactly
> > do
> >  > > we popularise?
> > > >
> > > > Is  reincarnation part of this DOCTRINE?
> > > >
> > >  > What if I start popularising the teaching of reincarnation that
>  > > > includes the provision that humans can sometimes be reborn  as
> > > > animals?
> > > >
> > >  > Am I faithfully transmitting the DOCTRINE?
> > > >
>  > > > And who is to say that I am faithfully or not transmitting  the
> > > > DOCTRINE?
> > > >
> > >  > In other words, who is to say what the REAL, TRUE "doctrine" is?
>  > > >
> > > > The objects of the TS doesn't tell us  what the DOCTRINE is all
> > > about,
> > > > so  where and how does one [an inquirer, a newcomer] discover 
>  what
> > > the
> > > > DOCTRINE is that the Chohan  seems to hold in SUCH high regard?
> > > >
> > >  > Daniel
> > > > ____http://hpb.cc_ht_ (http://hpb.cc_h_/)  (_http://hpb.cc_ht_ 
(http://hpb.cc__/) ) (__http://hpb.cc_ht_ (http://hpb.cc_h_/) 
> (_http://hpb.cc_h_ (http://hpb.cc_/) ) ) (___http://hpb.cc/ht_ 
(http://hpb.cc/h_)  (_http://hpb.cc/h_ (http://hpb.cc/_) )
>  > (__http://hpb.cc/h_ (http://hpb.cc/_)  (_http://hpb.cc/_ 
(http://hpb.cc/) ) ) )
> > > >
>  > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >  >
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