Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00201)

Dear Adelasie and all

Adelasie, indeed we are, it is a precious commodity in a world where 
such freedoms may not exist or are being steadily lost for all manner 
of reasons. 

In all interchanges, violence lurks in potential.

Where interchanges turn violent, whether psychological, in writing, 
verbal or physical, precious freedoms are lost making each of us all 
the more impoverished.

It is perhaps incumbent upon each of us to carefully produce our 
thoughts and words so as to avoid inflaming violence whilst, if it 
seems appropriate, maintaining our position of extreme disagreement. 

A famous saying to assist us in this if we choose might be, "I may 
not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to 
say it." (Paraphrased)

Within reason, perhaps this can be helpful in balancing our 
psychological reaction to a perceived or actual injustice?

Thank you again

Kind regards
Nigel




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@...> wrote:
>
> Aren't we fortunate to be able to conduct dialog in this 
environement 
> of freedom and reciprocity? 
> 
> All the best,
> Adelasie
> 
> On 9 Mar 2007 at 6:03, nhcareyta wrote:
> 
> > Dear Adelasie
> > Thank you so much for this most interesting and polite dialogue.
> > All the very best in your search.
> > Kind regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You've clearly thought all this through. More power to you. 
Each 
> > has 
> > > to find his own way, and as long as we keep seeking, we're 
making 
> > > progress. Good luck.
> > > 
> > > Adelasie
> > > 
> > > On 9 Mar 2007 at 2:05, nhcareyta wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Dear Adelasie and all
> > > > Adelasie, thank you once again for your contribution.
> > > > 
> > > > As I mentioned in a previous posting, all that we do in 
thought 
> > and 
> > > > deed is an action. This is the essence of karma from its root 
> > kri, to 
> > > > act or action. 
> > > > 
> > > > My interpretation of what you write suggests that your 
individual 
> > > > action is based largely at the vital level of inner attitude 
and 
> > less 
> > > > so on external, practical action?
> > > > 
> > > > Undoubtedly to me, from a Theosophical perspective, our 
initial 
> > and 
> > > > ongoing action needs be internal in essence thereby opening 
our 
> > self 
> > > > to the spiritualised energies of the/our true Self.  It is my 
> > > > understanding and experience that concurrently, this 
spiritual 
> > energy 
> > > > needs be applied in practical circumstances. In the matter 
more 
> > > > specifically under discussion, this translates into seriously 
> > > > questioning and challenging, both verbally and in writing, 
> > anything 
> > > > spoken or written, especially that which would appear to 
restrict 
> > > > freedom so cherished by us all.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I wrote, " How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> > > > interpretations by
> > > > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on 
the 
> > street
> > > > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied 
access to
> > > > > schooling and employment?
> > > > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under 
> > putative
> > > > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> > independent
> > > > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is 
guilty of
> > > > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to 
death.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > To which you responded, "Now why would we need to make a 
> > judgement 
> > > > about these issues? Are we
> > > > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How 
else
> > > > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these 
issues? 
> > Why
> > > > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response?"
> > > > 
> > > > With respect, are you really serious? If you are and in spite 
of 
> > all 
> > > > we have discussed, I do not understand your position. Even 
> > Mahatma 
> > > > Ghandi, the most honourable and perhaps archetypal pacifist 
felt 
> > > > moved to challenge injustice and loss of freedom wherever 
they 
> > arose.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You wrote, "Do we think that it
> > > > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
> > world?
> > > > > Why would we think that?"
> > > > 
> > > > Freedom, justice, fairness, equality et al are to me not 
specific 
> > to 
> > > > Judeo-Christianity. They are principles to be found at the 
core 
> > of 
> > > > human nature as well as within the very nature of the Kosmos 
> > itself. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You wrote, "Is it perhaps that it is easier to point out
> > > > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
> > address 
> > > > the
> > > > > inhumanity in our own world."
> > > > 
> > > > Whether this is a projection of my own iniquities as you 
appear 
> > to 
> > > > suggest is only partly relevant it would seem. Of greater 
> > relevance, 
> > > > lest we be so selfishly, self-absorbed with our own state, is 
to 
> > act 
> > > > to alleviate suffering wherever we determine that to be and 
> > however 
> > > > we deem our actions appropriate. 
> > > > If we wait till we're perfect before we practically act, we 
will 
> > be a 
> > > > long time waiting.  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You wrote, "As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we 
> > could 
> > > > say that yes,
> > > > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have 
no 
> > power
> > > > > over the karma of another."
> > > > 
> > > > I would suggest that we can, do and in fact are required to 
> > > > have "power" over another's karma although perhaps not in the 
way 
> > you 
> > > > are using the word.
> > > > Where suffering is apparent it is too simplistic to say that 
that 
> > > > particular suffering is deserved. I have learnt it is the 
height 
> > of 
> > > > arrogance to second-guess karma. For me, the law is 
infinitely 
> > too 
> > > > profound for superficial interpretation. Madame Blavatsky and 
the 
> > > > Mahatmas often speak of "accidents".
> > > > That being said, I will use an example where we do 
have "power" 
> > over 
> > > > another person's karma. If we are walking along a street in 
India 
> > > > eating samosas and we see a starving beggar on the footpath, 
we 
> > can 
> > > > share our food or not, thereby having "power" over the 
beggar's 
> > > > karma. Paradoxically we might consider that whatever we did 
or 
> > did 
> > > > not do was the beggar's karma, however that falls a little 
too 
> > > > closely to fatalism, something spoken against by Madame 
> > Blavatsky. In 
> > > > every moment we have choice, whereby we are affecting our and 
> > others' 
> > > > karma. Whilst this might not be "power" in the traditional 
sense 
> > it 
> > > > is nonetheless cause and effect and we can certainly affect 
the 
> > > > karmic effects of another.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Without any intent to insult your position to which you are 
fully 
> > > > entitled and which I respect, after considerable discussion 
it 
> > > > appears on the surface to me that your otherwise worthwhile 
and 
> > > > extraordinarily accommodating attitude has become almost a 
dogma 
> > in 
> > > > itself. It seems to almost blindly accept and allow without 
> > > > challenge, the permitting of qualities which to me are 
totally 
> > > > unacceptable, i.e. injustice, inequality, unfairness and loss 
of 
> > > > freedom, under the guise that we do not have the right to 
> > challenge 
> > > > and that we must instead look to our own motives, practices 
and 
> > > > backyard first. 
> > > > 
> > > > In these matters it seems we must respectfully disagree.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You wrote, "I think that we are very fortunate to have the 
> > freedom to 
> > > > discuss
> > > > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of 
conflicted, 
> > we 
> > > > owe
> > > > > it to ourselves to go back to the source and find an 
underlying
> > > > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all 
life is 
> > a
> > > > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, 
able 
> > to 
> > > > be
> > > > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever 
available 
> > to
> > > > > guide and protect us.
> > > > 
> > > > On this we are in total agreement.
> > > > 
> > > > Kind regards
> > > > Nigel 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> 
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Nigel,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Find my comments interspersed below:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > You write above in context, "We need not concern 
ourselves 
> > with 
> > > > the 
> > > > > > iniquities of others."
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > How then are we to approach those teachings that distort, 
> > subvert 
> > > > or 
> > > > > > betray original teachings?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Use our own understanding. Compare what we read or 
encounter 
> > with 
> > > > > what we know from our own experience to be true. Listen to 
the 
> > > > Knower 
> > > > > within Which guides us if we allow it. Allow others to do 
the 
> > same.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> > interpretations 
> > > > by 
> > > > > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on 
the 
> > > > street 
> > > > > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > > > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied 
access 
> > to 
> > > > > > schooling and employment?
> > > > > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, 
under 
> > > > putative 
> > > > > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> > > > independent 
> > > > > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is 
guilty 
> > of 
> > > > > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to 
death.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Now why would we need to make a judgement about these 
issues? 
> > Are 
> > > > we 
> > > > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How 
> > else 
> > > > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these 
issues? 
> > Why 
> > > > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response? Do we 
think 
> > that 
> > > > it 
> > > > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
> > world? 
> > > > > Why would we think that? Is it perhaps that it is easier to 
> > point 
> > > > out 
> > > > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
> > address 
> > > > the 
> > > > > inhumanity in our own world? It is pretty easy to find 
targets 
> > to 
> > > > aim 
> > > > > at in our own back yards.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What would be your course of action in these cases? 
Should we 
> > > > > > challenge these mostly inaccurate interpretations of the 
> > Koran or 
> > > > do 
> > > > > > we leave to karma to resolve. Or are we actually agents 
of 
> > karma?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Are you a student of the Koran? If so, perhaps you might 
find 
> > it 
> > > > > important to go to the country in question and work to 
right 
> > the 
> > > > > wrongs you perceive. If not, it might be more useful to 
address 
> > the 
> > > > > problems nearer to hand. Karma will adjust the balance 
> > everywhere, 
> > > > no 
> > > > > matter what we try to do. It is preferable to try to behave 
> > > > according 
> > > > > the the Higher Law, in order not to create more Karmic 
> > > > retribution.  
> > > > > for ourselves and our loved ones if possible. It looks to 
me 
> > like 
> > > > the 
> > > > > Western world has piled up an astonishing amount of 
> > retribution, 
> > > > when 
> > > > > we consider a few centuries of colonialism and their 
attendent 
> > > > > atrocities.
> > > > > 
> > > > > As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we could say 
> > that 
> > > > yes, 
> > > > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have 
no 
> > power 
> > > > > over the karma of another. We create our own future, as we 
> > created 
> > > > > our own present, as does everyone else.  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Please excuse the strength of these examples but these 
are 
> > > > matters 
> > > > > > which I have thought through as deeply as I am able, 
> > particularly 
> > > > vis 
> > > > > > a vis what we might term the Theosophical approach.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think that we are very fortunate to have the freedom to 
> > discuss 
> > > > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of 
conflicted, 
> > we 
> > > > owe 
> > > > > it to  ourselves to go back to the source and find an 
> > underlying 
> > > > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all 
life is 
> > a 
> > > > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, 
able 
> > to 
> > > > be 
> > > > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever 
available 
> > to 
> > > > > guide and protect us.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Adelasie
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >
>