Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00206)

A very wise person told me once that the most important quality to 
cultivate in oneself is courtesy. It must be genuine, of course, in 
order to have a positive effect overall, but it does go a long way 
toward smoothing over the rough places in communication.

Adelasie

On 10 Mar 2007 at 0:46, nhcareyta wrote:

> Dear Adelasie and all
> 
> Adelasie, indeed we are, it is a precious commodity in a world where 
> such freedoms may not exist or are being steadily lost for all manner 
> of reasons. 
> 
> In all interchanges, violence lurks in potential.
> 
> Where interchanges turn violent, whether psychological, in writing, 
> verbal or physical, precious freedoms are lost making each of us all 
> the more impoverished.
> 
> It is perhaps incumbent upon each of us to carefully produce our 
> thoughts and words so as to avoid inflaming violence whilst, if it 
> seems appropriate, maintaining our position of extreme disagreement. 
> 
> A famous saying to assist us in this if we choose might be, "I may 
> not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to 
> say it." (Paraphrased)
> 
> Within reason, perhaps this can be helpful in balancing our 
> psychological reaction to a perceived or actual injustice?
> 
> Thank you again
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@...> wrote:
> >
> > Aren't we fortunate to be able to conduct dialog in this 
> environement 
> > of freedom and reciprocity? 
> > 
> > All the best,
> > Adelasie
> > 
> > On 9 Mar 2007 at 6:03, nhcareyta wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear Adelasie
> > > Thank you so much for this most interesting and polite dialogue.
> > > All the very best in your search.
> > > Kind regards
> > > Nigel
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You've clearly thought all this through. More power to you. 
> Each 
> > > has 
> > > > to find his own way, and as long as we keep seeking, we're 
> making 
> > > > progress. Good luck.
> > > > 
> > > > Adelasie
> > > > 
> > > > On 9 Mar 2007 at 2:05, nhcareyta wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Dear Adelasie and all
> > > > > Adelasie, thank you once again for your contribution.
> > > > > 
> > > > > As I mentioned in a previous posting, all that we do in 
> thought 
> > > and 
> > > > > deed is an action. This is the essence of karma from its root 
> > > kri, to 
> > > > > act or action. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > My interpretation of what you write suggests that your 
> individual 
> > > > > action is based largely at the vital level of inner attitude 
> and 
> > > less 
> > > > > so on external, practical action?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Undoubtedly to me, from a Theosophical perspective, our 
> initial 
> > > and 
> > > > > ongoing action needs be internal in essence thereby opening 
> our 
> > > self 
> > > > > to the spiritualised energies of the/our true Self.  It is my 
> > > > > understanding and experience that concurrently, this 
> spiritual 
> > > energy 
> > > > > needs be applied in practical circumstances. In the matter 
> more 
> > > > > specifically under discussion, this translates into seriously 
> > > > > questioning and challenging, both verbally and in writing, 
> > > anything 
> > > > > spoken or written, especially that which would appear to 
> restrict 
> > > > > freedom so cherished by us all.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I wrote, " How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> > > > > interpretations by
> > > > > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on 
> the 
> > > street
> > > > > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > > > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied 
> access to
> > > > > > schooling and employment?
> > > > > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under 
> > > putative
> > > > > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> > > independent
> > > > > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is 
> guilty of
> > > > > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to 
> death.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > To which you responded, "Now why would we need to make a 
> > > judgement 
> > > > > about these issues? Are we
> > > > > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How 
> else
> > > > > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these 
> issues? 
> > > Why
> > > > > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response?"
> > > > > 
> > > > > With respect, are you really serious? If you are and in spite 
> of 
> > > all 
> > > > > we have discussed, I do not understand your position. Even 
> > > Mahatma 
> > > > > Ghandi, the most honourable and perhaps archetypal pacifist 
> felt 
> > > > > moved to challenge injustice and loss of freedom wherever 
> they 
> > > arose.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You wrote, "Do we think that it
> > > > > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
> > > world?
> > > > > > Why would we think that?"
> > > > > 
> > > > > Freedom, justice, fairness, equality et al are to me not 
> specific 
> > > to 
> > > > > Judeo-Christianity. They are principles to be found at the 
> core 
> > > of 
> > > > > human nature as well as within the very nature of the Kosmos 
> > > itself. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You wrote, "Is it perhaps that it is easier to point out
> > > > > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
> > > address 
> > > > > the
> > > > > > inhumanity in our own world."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Whether this is a projection of my own iniquities as you 
> appear 
> > > to 
> > > > > suggest is only partly relevant it would seem. Of greater 
> > > relevance, 
> > > > > lest we be so selfishly, self-absorbed with our own state, is 
> to 
> > > act 
> > > > > to alleviate suffering wherever we determine that to be and 
> > > however 
> > > > > we deem our actions appropriate. 
> > > > > If we wait till we're perfect before we practically act, we 
> will 
> > > be a 
> > > > > long time waiting.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You wrote, "As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we 
> > > could 
> > > > > say that yes,
> > > > > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have 
> no 
> > > power
> > > > > > over the karma of another."
> > > > > 
> > > > > I would suggest that we can, do and in fact are required to 
> > > > > have "power" over another's karma although perhaps not in the 
> way 
> > > you 
> > > > > are using the word.
> > > > > Where suffering is apparent it is too simplistic to say that 
> that 
> > > > > particular suffering is deserved. I have learnt it is the 
> height 
> > > of 
> > > > > arrogance to second-guess karma. For me, the law is 
> infinitely 
> > > too 
> > > > > profound for superficial interpretation. Madame Blavatsky and 
> the 
> > > > > Mahatmas often speak of "accidents".
> > > > > That being said, I will use an example where we do 
> have "power" 
> > > over 
> > > > > another person's karma. If we are walking along a street in 
> India 
> > > > > eating samosas and we see a starving beggar on the footpath, 
> we 
> > > can 
> > > > > share our food or not, thereby having "power" over the 
> beggar's 
> > > > > karma. Paradoxically we might consider that whatever we did 
> or 
> > > did 
> > > > > not do was the beggar's karma, however that falls a little 
> too 
> > > > > closely to fatalism, something spoken against by Madame 
> > > Blavatsky. In 
> > > > > every moment we have choice, whereby we are affecting our and 
> > > others' 
> > > > > karma. Whilst this might not be "power" in the traditional 
> sense 
> > > it 
> > > > > is nonetheless cause and effect and we can certainly affect 
> the 
> > > > > karmic effects of another.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Without any intent to insult your position to which you are 
> fully 
> > > > > entitled and which I respect, after considerable discussion 
> it 
> > > > > appears on the surface to me that your otherwise worthwhile 
> and 
> > > > > extraordinarily accommodating attitude has become almost a 
> dogma 
> > > in 
> > > > > itself. It seems to almost blindly accept and allow without 
> > > > > challenge, the permitting of qualities which to me are 
> totally 
> > > > > unacceptable, i.e. injustice, inequality, unfairness and loss 
> of 
> > > > > freedom, under the guise that we do not have the right to 
> > > challenge 
> > > > > and that we must instead look to our own motives, practices 
> and 
> > > > > backyard first. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > In these matters it seems we must respectfully disagree.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You wrote, "I think that we are very fortunate to have the 
> > > freedom to 
> > > > > discuss
> > > > > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of 
> conflicted, 
> > > we 
> > > > > owe
> > > > > > it to ourselves to go back to the source and find an 
> underlying
> > > > > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all 
> life is 
> > > a
> > > > > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, 
> able 
> > > to 
> > > > > be
> > > > > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever 
> available 
> > > to
> > > > > > guide and protect us.
> > > > > 
> > > > > On this we are in total agreement.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kind regards
> > > > > Nigel 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> 
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Nigel,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Find my comments interspersed below:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You write above in context, "We need not concern 
> ourselves 
> > > with 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > > iniquities of others."
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > How then are we to approach those teachings that distort, 
> > > subvert 
> > > > > or 
> > > > > > > betray original teachings?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Use our own understanding. Compare what we read or 
> encounter 
> > > with 
> > > > > > what we know from our own experience to be true. Listen to 
> the 
> > > > > Knower 
> > > > > > within Which guides us if we allow it. Allow others to do 
> the 
> > > same.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> > > interpretations 
> > > > > by 
> > > > > > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on 
> the 
> > > > > street 
> > > > > > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > > > > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied 
> access 
> > > to 
> > > > > > > schooling and employment?
> > > > > > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, 
> under 
> > > > > putative 
> > > > > > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> > > > > independent 
> > > > > > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is 
> guilty 
> > > of 
> > > > > > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to 
> death.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Now why would we need to make a judgement about these 
> issues? 
> > > Are 
> > > > > we 
> > > > > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How 
> > > else 
> > > > > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these 
> issues? 
> > > Why 
> > > > > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response? Do we 
> think 
> > > that 
> > > > > it 
> > > > > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
> > > world? 
> > > > > > Why would we think that? Is it perhaps that it is easier to 
> > > point 
> > > > > out 
> > > > > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
> > > address 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > inhumanity in our own world? It is pretty easy to find 
> targets 
> > > to 
> > > > > aim 
> > > > > > at in our own back yards.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > What would be your course of action in these cases? 
> Should we 
> > > > > > > challenge these mostly inaccurate interpretations of the 
> > > Koran or 
> > > > > do 
> > > > > > > we leave to karma to resolve. Or are we actually agents 
> of 
> > > karma?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Are you a student of the Koran? If so, perhaps you might 
> find 
> > > it 
> > > > > > important to go to the country in question and work to 
> right 
> > > the 
> > > > > > wrongs you perceive. If not, it might be more useful to 
> address 
> > > the 
> > > > > > problems nearer to hand. Karma will adjust the balance 
> > > everywhere, 
> > > > > no 
> > > > > > matter what we try to do. It is preferable to try to behave 
> > > > > according 
> > > > > > the the Higher Law, in order not to create more Karmic 
> > > > > retribution.  
> > > > > > for ourselves and our loved ones if possible. It looks to 
> me 
> > > like 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > Western world has piled up an astonishing amount of 
> > > retribution, 
> > > > > when 
> > > > > > we consider a few centuries of colonialism and their 
> attendent 
> > > > > > atrocities.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we could say 
> > > that 
> > > > > yes, 
> > > > > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have 
> no 
> > > power 
> > > > > > over the karma of another. We create our own future, as we 
> > > created 
> > > > > > our own present, as does everyone else.  
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Please excuse the strength of these examples but these 
> are 
> > > > > matters 
> > > > > > > which I have thought through as deeply as I am able, 
> > > particularly 
> > > > > vis 
> > > > > > > a vis what we might term the Theosophical approach.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think that we are very fortunate to have the freedom to 
> > > discuss 
> > > > > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of 
> conflicted, 
> > > we 
> > > > > owe 
> > > > > > it to  ourselves to go back to the source and find an 
> > > underlying 
> > > > > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all 
> life is 
> > > a 
> > > > > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, 
> able 
> > > to 
> > > > > be 
> > > > > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever 
> available 
> > > to 
> > > > > > guide and protect us.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Adelasie
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 
>