Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00193)

Aren't we fortunate to be able to conduct dialog in this environement 
of freedom and reciprocity? 

All the best,
Adelasie

On 9 Mar 2007 at 6:03, nhcareyta wrote:

> Dear Adelasie
> Thank you so much for this most interesting and polite dialogue.
> All the very best in your search.
> Kind regards
> Nigel
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@...> wrote:
> >
> > You've clearly thought all this through. More power to you. Each 
> has 
> > to find his own way, and as long as we keep seeking, we're making 
> > progress. Good luck.
> > 
> > Adelasie
> > 
> > On 9 Mar 2007 at 2:05, nhcareyta wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear Adelasie and all
> > > Adelasie, thank you once again for your contribution.
> > > 
> > > As I mentioned in a previous posting, all that we do in thought 
> and 
> > > deed is an action. This is the essence of karma from its root 
> kri, to 
> > > act or action. 
> > > 
> > > My interpretation of what you write suggests that your individual 
> > > action is based largely at the vital level of inner attitude and 
> less 
> > > so on external, practical action?
> > > 
> > > Undoubtedly to me, from a Theosophical perspective, our initial 
> and 
> > > ongoing action needs be internal in essence thereby opening our 
> self 
> > > to the spiritualised energies of the/our true Self.  It is my 
> > > understanding and experience that concurrently, this spiritual 
> energy 
> > > needs be applied in practical circumstances. In the matter more 
> > > specifically under discussion, this translates into seriously 
> > > questioning and challenging, both verbally and in writing, 
> anything 
> > > spoken or written, especially that which would appear to restrict 
> > > freedom so cherished by us all.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I wrote, " How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> > > interpretations by
> > > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on the 
> street
> > > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied access to
> > > > schooling and employment?
> > > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under 
> putative
> > > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> independent
> > > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is guilty of
> > > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to death.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > To which you responded, "Now why would we need to make a 
> judgement 
> > > about these issues? Are we
> > > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How else
> > > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these issues? 
> Why
> > > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response?"
> > > 
> > > With respect, are you really serious? If you are and in spite of 
> all 
> > > we have discussed, I do not understand your position. Even 
> Mahatma 
> > > Ghandi, the most honourable and perhaps archetypal pacifist felt 
> > > moved to challenge injustice and loss of freedom wherever they 
> arose.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > You wrote, "Do we think that it
> > > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
> world?
> > > > Why would we think that?"
> > > 
> > > Freedom, justice, fairness, equality et al are to me not specific 
> to 
> > > Judeo-Christianity. They are principles to be found at the core 
> of 
> > > human nature as well as within the very nature of the Kosmos 
> itself. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > You wrote, "Is it perhaps that it is easier to point out
> > > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
> address 
> > > the
> > > > inhumanity in our own world."
> > > 
> > > Whether this is a projection of my own iniquities as you appear 
> to 
> > > suggest is only partly relevant it would seem. Of greater 
> relevance, 
> > > lest we be so selfishly, self-absorbed with our own state, is to 
> act 
> > > to alleviate suffering wherever we determine that to be and 
> however 
> > > we deem our actions appropriate. 
> > > If we wait till we're perfect before we practically act, we will 
> be a 
> > > long time waiting.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > You wrote, "As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we 
> could 
> > > say that yes,
> > > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have no 
> power
> > > > over the karma of another."
> > > 
> > > I would suggest that we can, do and in fact are required to 
> > > have "power" over another's karma although perhaps not in the way 
> you 
> > > are using the word.
> > > Where suffering is apparent it is too simplistic to say that that 
> > > particular suffering is deserved. I have learnt it is the height 
> of 
> > > arrogance to second-guess karma. For me, the law is infinitely 
> too 
> > > profound for superficial interpretation. Madame Blavatsky and the 
> > > Mahatmas often speak of "accidents".
> > > That being said, I will use an example where we do have "power" 
> over 
> > > another person's karma. If we are walking along a street in India 
> > > eating samosas and we see a starving beggar on the footpath, we 
> can 
> > > share our food or not, thereby having "power" over the beggar's 
> > > karma. Paradoxically we might consider that whatever we did or 
> did 
> > > not do was the beggar's karma, however that falls a little too 
> > > closely to fatalism, something spoken against by Madame 
> Blavatsky. In 
> > > every moment we have choice, whereby we are affecting our and 
> others' 
> > > karma. Whilst this might not be "power" in the traditional sense 
> it 
> > > is nonetheless cause and effect and we can certainly affect the 
> > > karmic effects of another.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Without any intent to insult your position to which you are fully 
> > > entitled and which I respect, after considerable discussion it 
> > > appears on the surface to me that your otherwise worthwhile and 
> > > extraordinarily accommodating attitude has become almost a dogma 
> in 
> > > itself. It seems to almost blindly accept and allow without 
> > > challenge, the permitting of qualities which to me are totally 
> > > unacceptable, i.e. injustice, inequality, unfairness and loss of 
> > > freedom, under the guise that we do not have the right to 
> challenge 
> > > and that we must instead look to our own motives, practices and 
> > > backyard first. 
> > > 
> > > In these matters it seems we must respectfully disagree.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > You wrote, "I think that we are very fortunate to have the 
> freedom to 
> > > discuss
> > > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of conflicted, 
> we 
> > > owe
> > > > it to ourselves to go back to the source and find an underlying
> > > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all life is 
> a
> > > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, able 
> to 
> > > be
> > > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever available 
> to
> > > > guide and protect us.
> > > 
> > > On this we are in total agreement.
> > > 
> > > Kind regards
> > > Nigel 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Nigel,
> > > > 
> > > > Find my comments interspersed below:
> > > > 
> > > > > You write above in context, "We need not concern ourselves 
> with 
> > > the 
> > > > > iniquities of others."
> > > > > 
> > > > > How then are we to approach those teachings that distort, 
> subvert 
> > > or 
> > > > > betray original teachings?
> > > > 
> > > > Use our own understanding. Compare what we read or encounter 
> with 
> > > > what we know from our own experience to be true. Listen to the 
> > > Knower 
> > > > within Which guides us if we allow it. Allow others to do the 
> same.
> > > > 
> > > > > How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> interpretations 
> > > by 
> > > > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on the 
> > > street 
> > > > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied access 
> to 
> > > > > schooling and employment?
> > > > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under 
> > > putative 
> > > > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> > > independent 
> > > > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is guilty 
> of 
> > > > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to death.
> > > > 
> > > > Now why would we need to make a judgement about these issues? 
> Are 
> > > we 
> > > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How 
> else 
> > > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these issues? 
> Why 
> > > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response? Do we think 
> that 
> > > it 
> > > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
> world? 
> > > > Why would we think that? Is it perhaps that it is easier to 
> point 
> > > out 
> > > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
> address 
> > > the 
> > > > inhumanity in our own world? It is pretty easy to find targets 
> to 
> > > aim 
> > > > at in our own back yards.
> > > > > 
> > > > > What would be your course of action in these cases? Should we 
> > > > > challenge these mostly inaccurate interpretations of the 
> Koran or 
> > > do 
> > > > > we leave to karma to resolve. Or are we actually agents of 
> karma?
> > > > 
> > > > Are you a student of the Koran? If so, perhaps you might find 
> it 
> > > > important to go to the country in question and work to right 
> the 
> > > > wrongs you perceive. If not, it might be more useful to address 
> the 
> > > > problems nearer to hand. Karma will adjust the balance 
> everywhere, 
> > > no 
> > > > matter what we try to do. It is preferable to try to behave 
> > > according 
> > > > the the Higher Law, in order not to create more Karmic 
> > > retribution.  
> > > > for ourselves and our loved ones if possible. It looks to me 
> like 
> > > the 
> > > > Western world has piled up an astonishing amount of 
> retribution, 
> > > when 
> > > > we consider a few centuries of colonialism and their attendent 
> > > > atrocities.
> > > > 
> > > > As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we could say 
> that 
> > > yes, 
> > > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have no 
> power 
> > > > over the karma of another. We create our own future, as we 
> created 
> > > > our own present, as does everyone else.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > Please excuse the strength of these examples but these are 
> > > matters 
> > > > > which I have thought through as deeply as I am able, 
> particularly 
> > > vis 
> > > > > a vis what we might term the Theosophical approach.
> > > > > 
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > 
> > > > I think that we are very fortunate to have the freedom to 
> discuss 
> > > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of conflicted, 
> we 
> > > owe 
> > > > it to  ourselves to go back to the source and find an 
> underlying 
> > > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all life is 
> a 
> > > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, able 
> to 
> > > be 
> > > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever available 
> to 
> > > > guide and protect us.
> > > > 
> > > > Adelasie
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 
>