Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00181)

You've clearly thought all this through. More power to you. Each has 
to find his own way, and as long as we keep seeking, we're making 
progress. Good luck.

Adelasie

On 9 Mar 2007 at 2:05, nhcareyta wrote:

> Dear Adelasie and all
> Adelasie, thank you once again for your contribution.
> 
> As I mentioned in a previous posting, all that we do in thought and 
> deed is an action. This is the essence of karma from its root kri, to 
> act or action. 
> 
> My interpretation of what you write suggests that your individual 
> action is based largely at the vital level of inner attitude and less 
> so on external, practical action?
> 
> Undoubtedly to me, from a Theosophical perspective, our initial and 
> ongoing action needs be internal in essence thereby opening our self 
> to the spiritualised energies of the/our true Self.  It is my 
> understanding and experience that concurrently, this spiritual energy 
> needs be applied in practical circumstances. In the matter more 
> specifically under discussion, this translates into seriously 
> questioning and challenging, both verbally and in writing, anything 
> spoken or written, especially that which would appear to restrict 
> freedom so cherished by us all.
> 
> 
> I wrote, " How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> interpretations by
> > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on the street
> > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > How are we to respond when these same women are denied access to
> > schooling and employment?
> > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under putative
> > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four independent
> > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is guilty of
> > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to death.
> 
> 
> To which you responded, "Now why would we need to make a judgement 
> about these issues? Are we
> > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How else
> > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these issues? Why
> > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response?"
> 
> With respect, are you really serious? If you are and in spite of all 
> we have discussed, I do not understand your position. Even Mahatma 
> Ghandi, the most honourable and perhaps archetypal pacifist felt 
> moved to challenge injustice and loss of freedom wherever they arose.
> 
> 
> 
> You wrote, "Do we think that it
> > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim world?
> > Why would we think that?"
> 
> Freedom, justice, fairness, equality et al are to me not specific to 
> Judeo-Christianity. They are principles to be found at the core of 
> human nature as well as within the very nature of the Kosmos itself. 
> 
> 
> 
> You wrote, "Is it perhaps that it is easier to point out
> > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to address 
> the
> > inhumanity in our own world."
> 
> Whether this is a projection of my own iniquities as you appear to 
> suggest is only partly relevant it would seem. Of greater relevance, 
> lest we be so selfishly, self-absorbed with our own state, is to act 
> to alleviate suffering wherever we determine that to be and however 
> we deem our actions appropriate. 
> If we wait till we're perfect before we practically act, we will be a 
> long time waiting.  
> 
> 
> You wrote, "As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we could 
> say that yes,
> > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have no power
> > over the karma of another."
> 
> I would suggest that we can, do and in fact are required to 
> have "power" over another's karma although perhaps not in the way you 
> are using the word.
> Where suffering is apparent it is too simplistic to say that that 
> particular suffering is deserved. I have learnt it is the height of 
> arrogance to second-guess karma. For me, the law is infinitely too 
> profound for superficial interpretation. Madame Blavatsky and the 
> Mahatmas often speak of "accidents".
> That being said, I will use an example where we do have "power" over 
> another person's karma. If we are walking along a street in India 
> eating samosas and we see a starving beggar on the footpath, we can 
> share our food or not, thereby having "power" over the beggar's 
> karma. Paradoxically we might consider that whatever we did or did 
> not do was the beggar's karma, however that falls a little too 
> closely to fatalism, something spoken against by Madame Blavatsky. In 
> every moment we have choice, whereby we are affecting our and others' 
> karma. Whilst this might not be "power" in the traditional sense it 
> is nonetheless cause and effect and we can certainly affect the 
> karmic effects of another.
> 
> 
> Without any intent to insult your position to which you are fully 
> entitled and which I respect, after considerable discussion it 
> appears on the surface to me that your otherwise worthwhile and 
> extraordinarily accommodating attitude has become almost a dogma in 
> itself. It seems to almost blindly accept and allow without 
> challenge, the permitting of qualities which to me are totally 
> unacceptable, i.e. injustice, inequality, unfairness and loss of 
> freedom, under the guise that we do not have the right to challenge 
> and that we must instead look to our own motives, practices and 
> backyard first. 
> 
> In these matters it seems we must respectfully disagree.
> 
> 
> You wrote, "I think that we are very fortunate to have the freedom to 
> discuss
> > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of conflicted, we 
> owe
> > it to ourselves to go back to the source and find an underlying
> > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all life is a
> > good place to start. These principles are living entities, able to 
> be
> > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever available to
> > guide and protect us.
> 
> On this we are in total agreement.
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Nigel,
> > 
> > Find my comments interspersed below:
> > 
> > > You write above in context, "We need not concern ourselves with 
> the 
> > > iniquities of others."
> > > 
> > > How then are we to approach those teachings that distort, subvert 
> or 
> > > betray original teachings?
> > 
> > Use our own understanding. Compare what we read or encounter with 
> > what we know from our own experience to be true. Listen to the 
> Knower 
> > within Which guides us if we allow it. Allow others to do the same.
> > 
> > > How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's interpretations 
> by 
> > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on the 
> street 
> > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied access to 
> > > schooling and employment?
> > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under 
> putative 
> > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> independent 
> > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is guilty of 
> > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to death.
> > 
> > Now why would we need to make a judgement about these issues? Are 
> we 
> > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How else 
> > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these issues? Why 
> > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response? Do we think that 
> it 
> > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim world? 
> > Why would we think that? Is it perhaps that it is easier to point 
> out 
> > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to address 
> the 
> > inhumanity in our own world? It is pretty easy to find targets to 
> aim 
> > at in our own back yards.
> > > 
> > > What would be your course of action in these cases? Should we 
> > > challenge these mostly inaccurate interpretations of the Koran or 
> do 
> > > we leave to karma to resolve. Or are we actually agents of karma?
> > 
> > Are you a student of the Koran? If so, perhaps you might find it 
> > important to go to the country in question and work to right the 
> > wrongs you perceive. If not, it might be more useful to address the 
> > problems nearer to hand. Karma will adjust the balance everywhere, 
> no 
> > matter what we try to do. It is preferable to try to behave 
> according 
> > the the Higher Law, in order not to create more Karmic 
> retribution.  
> > for ourselves and our loved ones if possible. It looks to me like 
> the 
> > Western world has piled up an astonishing amount of retribution, 
> when 
> > we consider a few centuries of colonialism and their attendent 
> > atrocities.
> > 
> > As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we could say that 
> yes, 
> > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have no power 
> > over the karma of another. We create our own future, as we created 
> > our own present, as does everyone else.  
> > > 
> > > Please excuse the strength of these examples but these are 
> matters 
> > > which I have thought through as deeply as I am able, particularly 
> vis 
> > > a vis what we might term the Theosophical approach.
> > > 
> > > What do you think?
> > 
> > I think that we are very fortunate to have the freedom to discuss 
> > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of conflicted, we 
> owe 
> > it to  ourselves to go back to the source and find an underlying 
> > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all life is a 
> > good place to start. These principles are living entities, able to 
> be 
> > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever available to 
> > guide and protect us.
> > 
> > Adelasie
> >
> 
> 
>