Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00186)

Dear Adelasie
Thank you so much for this most interesting and polite dialogue.
All the very best in your search.
Kind regards
Nigel


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@...> wrote:
>
> You've clearly thought all this through. More power to you. Each 
has 
> to find his own way, and as long as we keep seeking, we're making 
> progress. Good luck.
> 
> Adelasie
> 
> On 9 Mar 2007 at 2:05, nhcareyta wrote:
> 
> > Dear Adelasie and all
> > Adelasie, thank you once again for your contribution.
> > 
> > As I mentioned in a previous posting, all that we do in thought 
and 
> > deed is an action. This is the essence of karma from its root 
kri, to 
> > act or action. 
> > 
> > My interpretation of what you write suggests that your individual 
> > action is based largely at the vital level of inner attitude and 
less 
> > so on external, practical action?
> > 
> > Undoubtedly to me, from a Theosophical perspective, our initial 
and 
> > ongoing action needs be internal in essence thereby opening our 
self 
> > to the spiritualised energies of the/our true Self.  It is my 
> > understanding and experience that concurrently, this spiritual 
energy 
> > needs be applied in practical circumstances. In the matter more 
> > specifically under discussion, this translates into seriously 
> > questioning and challenging, both verbally and in writing, 
anything 
> > spoken or written, especially that which would appear to restrict 
> > freedom so cherished by us all.
> > 
> > 
> > I wrote, " How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
> > interpretations by
> > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on the 
street
> > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied access to
> > > schooling and employment?
> > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under 
putative
> > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
independent
> > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is guilty of
> > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to death.
> > 
> > 
> > To which you responded, "Now why would we need to make a 
judgement 
> > about these issues? Are we
> > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How else
> > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these issues? 
Why
> > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response?"
> > 
> > With respect, are you really serious? If you are and in spite of 
all 
> > we have discussed, I do not understand your position. Even 
Mahatma 
> > Ghandi, the most honourable and perhaps archetypal pacifist felt 
> > moved to challenge injustice and loss of freedom wherever they 
arose.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You wrote, "Do we think that it
> > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
world?
> > > Why would we think that?"
> > 
> > Freedom, justice, fairness, equality et al are to me not specific 
to 
> > Judeo-Christianity. They are principles to be found at the core 
of 
> > human nature as well as within the very nature of the Kosmos 
itself. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You wrote, "Is it perhaps that it is easier to point out
> > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
address 
> > the
> > > inhumanity in our own world."
> > 
> > Whether this is a projection of my own iniquities as you appear 
to 
> > suggest is only partly relevant it would seem. Of greater 
relevance, 
> > lest we be so selfishly, self-absorbed with our own state, is to 
act 
> > to alleviate suffering wherever we determine that to be and 
however 
> > we deem our actions appropriate. 
> > If we wait till we're perfect before we practically act, we will 
be a 
> > long time waiting.  
> > 
> > 
> > You wrote, "As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we 
could 
> > say that yes,
> > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have no 
power
> > > over the karma of another."
> > 
> > I would suggest that we can, do and in fact are required to 
> > have "power" over another's karma although perhaps not in the way 
you 
> > are using the word.
> > Where suffering is apparent it is too simplistic to say that that 
> > particular suffering is deserved. I have learnt it is the height 
of 
> > arrogance to second-guess karma. For me, the law is infinitely 
too 
> > profound for superficial interpretation. Madame Blavatsky and the 
> > Mahatmas often speak of "accidents".
> > That being said, I will use an example where we do have "power" 
over 
> > another person's karma. If we are walking along a street in India 
> > eating samosas and we see a starving beggar on the footpath, we 
can 
> > share our food or not, thereby having "power" over the beggar's 
> > karma. Paradoxically we might consider that whatever we did or 
did 
> > not do was the beggar's karma, however that falls a little too 
> > closely to fatalism, something spoken against by Madame 
Blavatsky. In 
> > every moment we have choice, whereby we are affecting our and 
others' 
> > karma. Whilst this might not be "power" in the traditional sense 
it 
> > is nonetheless cause and effect and we can certainly affect the 
> > karmic effects of another.
> > 
> > 
> > Without any intent to insult your position to which you are fully 
> > entitled and which I respect, after considerable discussion it 
> > appears on the surface to me that your otherwise worthwhile and 
> > extraordinarily accommodating attitude has become almost a dogma 
in 
> > itself. It seems to almost blindly accept and allow without 
> > challenge, the permitting of qualities which to me are totally 
> > unacceptable, i.e. injustice, inequality, unfairness and loss of 
> > freedom, under the guise that we do not have the right to 
challenge 
> > and that we must instead look to our own motives, practices and 
> > backyard first. 
> > 
> > In these matters it seems we must respectfully disagree.
> > 
> > 
> > You wrote, "I think that we are very fortunate to have the 
freedom to 
> > discuss
> > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of conflicted, 
we 
> > owe
> > > it to ourselves to go back to the source and find an underlying
> > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all life is 
a
> > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, able 
to 
> > be
> > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever available 
to
> > > guide and protect us.
> > 
> > On this we are in total agreement.
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Nigel 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Nigel,
> > > 
> > > Find my comments interspersed below:
> > > 
> > > > You write above in context, "We need not concern ourselves 
with 
> > the 
> > > > iniquities of others."
> > > > 
> > > > How then are we to approach those teachings that distort, 
subvert 
> > or 
> > > > betray original teachings?
> > > 
> > > Use our own understanding. Compare what we read or encounter 
with 
> > > what we know from our own experience to be true. Listen to the 
> > Knower 
> > > within Which guides us if we allow it. Allow others to do the 
same.
> > > 
> > > > How, for example, are we respond to the Koran's 
interpretations 
> > by 
> > > > the Taliban which deny women the right to walk freely on the 
> > street 
> > > > unaccompanied and/or with their faces showing?
> > > > How are we to respond when these same women are denied access 
to 
> > > > schooling and employment?
> > > > Furthermore, where a women claims to have been raped, under 
> > putative 
> > > > Islamic Sharia law in some jurisdictions, she needs four 
> > independent 
> > > > male witnesses to validate her claim otherwise she is guilty 
of 
> > > > adultery if already married and subject to be stoned to death.
> > > 
> > > Now why would we need to make a judgement about these issues? 
Are 
> > we 
> > > Muslims, living in a Muslim country, under Islamic law? How 
else 
> > > could we ever hope to come to an understanding of these issues? 
Why 
> > > do we feel it incumbent on us to make a response? Do we think 
that 
> > it 
> > > is useful to apply our Judeo-Christian values to the Muslim 
world? 
> > > Why would we think that? Is it perhaps that it is easier to 
point 
> > out 
> > > the iniquities of others, as we judge them, than it is to 
address 
> > the 
> > > inhumanity in our own world? It is pretty easy to find targets 
to 
> > aim 
> > > at in our own back yards.
> > > > 
> > > > What would be your course of action in these cases? Should we 
> > > > challenge these mostly inaccurate interpretations of the 
Koran or 
> > do 
> > > > we leave to karma to resolve. Or are we actually agents of 
karma?
> > > 
> > > Are you a student of the Koran? If so, perhaps you might find 
it 
> > > important to go to the country in question and work to right 
the 
> > > wrongs you perceive. If not, it might be more useful to address 
the 
> > > problems nearer to hand. Karma will adjust the balance 
everywhere, 
> > no 
> > > matter what we try to do. It is preferable to try to behave 
> > according 
> > > the the Higher Law, in order not to create more Karmic 
> > retribution.  
> > > for ourselves and our loved ones if possible. It looks to me 
like 
> > the 
> > > Western world has piled up an astonishing amount of 
retribution, 
> > when 
> > > we consider a few centuries of colonialism and their attendent 
> > > atrocities.
> > > 
> > > As for the question, "Are we agents of Karma?" we could say 
that 
> > yes, 
> > > we are agents of karma, of our own karma, but that we have no 
power 
> > > over the karma of another. We create our own future, as we 
created 
> > > our own present, as does everyone else.  
> > > > 
> > > > Please excuse the strength of these examples but these are 
> > matters 
> > > > which I have thought through as deeply as I am able, 
particularly 
> > vis 
> > > > a vis what we might term the Theosophical approach.
> > > > 
> > > > What do you think?
> > > 
> > > I think that we are very fortunate to have the freedom to 
discuss 
> > > these issues and that whenever we feel confused of conflicted, 
we 
> > owe 
> > > it to  ourselves to go back to the source and find an 
underlying 
> > > principle that helps us figure things out. Unity of all life is 
a 
> > > good place to start. These principles are living entities, able 
to 
> > be 
> > > assimilated into our own consciousness to be forever available 
to 
> > > guide and protect us.
> > > 
> > > Adelasie
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >
>