Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01307)

Carl,

Mesmer did scarcely more than phenomena.

Phenomena was a minor aspect of HPB's work.

True, St. Germain did not write.  
But St. Germain was dealing with the course of History as a whole, as HPB was.

St. Germain and HPB were facing the tide of world events", and this seems to correspond to a particular moment in the lives of Initiates, that moment described in the NT Gospels.

I am not saying that Mesmer was not significant. And Cagliostro was meaningful, too.  

I am not saying that this viewpoint of mine is the only one possible. 

I am not not saying that HPB was the only Messenger in the end of the 19th century, either. 

Both HPB and St. Germain came with a group of souls to work in their end-of-centuries.  


Regards,  Carlos.  


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:15:55 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: HPB & St. Germain

> What I meant was that Mesmer was Blavatsky's contra part as The 
> Messenger. I also see St. Germain as a greater Occultist then 
> Mesmer, but it was Mesmer that was The Messenger to the West for the 
> 18th century. 
> So also Mesmer had direct contact with the source, and the source 
> was and is the Brotherhood of the Masters, which is not a 
> geographical place.
> 
> Carl
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> > 
> > You say: 
> > 
> > "I personally can't see any reason to believe that St. Germain was 
> > Blavatsky's contra part during the 18th century." 
> > 
> > You are free not to see that, but both HPB and the ML suggested 
> the idea, which is far from being originally mine. 
> > 
> > Mesmer and others (including Cagliostro) did not have the same 
> degree of occult learning as HPB and St. Germain had. Both had 
> direct contact with the source, and for both "HOME" was -- in the 
> Himalayas, not in Europe. 
> > 
> > Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:59:31 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World The 18th century Messengers
> > 
> > > The 18th century Messengers
> > > 
> > > I personally can't see any reason to believe that St. Germain 
> was 
> > > Blavatsky's contra part during the 18th century. More are 
> pointing 
> > > at Dr. Franz Anton Mesmer, which had at his side as co-worker, 
> St. 
> > > Germain (Mesmer's "Judge"), Cagliostro (Mesmer's "Olcott", the 
> > > organiser) and initially Chev. Casanova (similar to Crowley in 
> many 
> > > ways, maybe a fallen lay chela). Both the memoirs of Mesmer and 
> > > Casanova are giving some interesting information on this 
> subject, 
> > > and the biographical notes in trial protocol of Cagliostro's as 
> well.
> > > 
> > > And there is nothing at al, that are pointing in the direction 
> that 
> > > Prince Rakoczi and Count St. Germain was one and the same 
> person. 
> > > 
> > > Who of al this 18th century occultists, which was (or are today) 
> an 
> > > Adept, I do not dare to say, but some of them was defiantly 
> Chelas 
> > > or Lay Chelas.
> > > 
> > > Carl
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Konstantin,
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > 
> > > > It is consensus, see Clara Codd's book for example, that St. 
> > > Germain as 18th century incarnation was not a full Adept. 
> > > > 
> > > > Besides, it is a firm consensus and common knowledge that only 
> > > disciples, and never Adepts, mix with public and 
> political/social 
> > > events in the way St. Germain (or Cagliostro) interfered.
> > > > 
> > > > The reason for that is that an Adept is outside short term 
> human 
> > > karma and he is not willing to go against evolution and go back 
> in 
> > > his path. 
> > > > 
> > > > This is also a key concept to understand the necessary 
> Autonomy of 
> > > the Disciple. 
> > > > 
> > > > In the ML, Masters explain that if Disciples were not 
> Autonomous 
> > > and Responsible for their own actions, the Karma would belong to 
> > > their Teachers, and not to them. 
> > > > 
> > > > Therefore St. Germain, who strongly interacted with political, 
> > > public and social issues, was not an Adept. 
> > > > 
> > > > The incarnation in which an Initiate will get the decisive 
> > > initiation needs to be a new one. Magnetical reasons included. 
> > > > 
> > > > Besides, the Leadbeaterian ritualistic fancies, ascribed to 
> St. 
> > > Germain, clash in substance and content with the Masters' 
> teachings, 
> > > while we know that the Teachings of different Masters never 
> clash 
> > > except in wording. 
> > > > 
> > > > Finally, you can see that the large amount of wild 
> > > ritualisticfancies (including the ER) created by poor Leadbeater 
> and 
> > > ascribed to "St. Germain" were no more than fancies, while an 
> Adept 
> > > does not do that kind of thing. 
> > > > 
> > > > So, you see there is a mass of hints and evidences about that. 
> > > > 
> > > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Cópia:
> > > > 
> > > > Data:Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:31:35 -0000
> > > > 
> > > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: St. Germain Not Leadbeaterian, At All
> > > > 
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Rakoczi is a name which also corresponds to the same 
> > > incarnation as 
> > > > > "St. Germain".
> > > > > 
> > > > > As far I know, nor Leadbeater neither any other theosophical 
> > > author 
> > > > > who regards St. Germain an adept, didn't hold an opinion 
> that he 
> > > died 
> > > > > in the end of 18th century.
> > > > > Leadbeater when wrote about 1911 meant certainly the same 
> > > incarnation.
> > > > > 
> > > > > From the other sources we can conclude that St. Germain was 
> an 
> > > adept 
> > > > > already in 18th century, otherwise it would be hard to 
> explain 
> > > how the 
> > > > > old ladies recognized in him a man whom they knew in their 
> > > youth, and 
> > > > > still looking young when they were already old.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So Leadbeater had to need to invent any new names and 
> > > incarnations.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
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