Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01308)

How can we realistically judge anyone if we haven't walked in their shoes.  How do we know what causes led to certain actions, when we were not part of the event.  HPB is constantly telling us that many in the TS believed their actions were honorable and moral, because they were acting from the personal ego and not from their higher self.  When acting through higher self, higher self knows not to judge, not to criticise, higher self knows and understands that they were doing the best they could at the time.

To affirm a truth is one thing, to realize a truth is another.
Cass



carlosaveline <carlosaveline@terra.com.br> wrote:                                  Friends, 
 
 Judging other persons as such is worse than useless.  
 
 Judging other's actions in order to react towards them in the correct way is unavoidable for anyone who thinks before acting. 
 
 It is also unavoidable in any organized group or society.
 
 It is a false spirituality, in my view, that tries to deny these basic facts. 
 
 Yet I admit that this dialogue is most important and basic to understand esoteric philosophy.
 
 It is something which requires a calm study and evaluation, not to say judgment. 
 
 Spirituality is about discernment, and discernment implies judging and evaluating things, actions and situations. 
 
 Regards,  Carlos. 
 
 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
 
 Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
 
 Cópia:
 
 Data:Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:23:35 -0800 (PST)
 
 Assunto:Re: Theos-World Good to Judge Before Acting
 
 > Carlos wrote
 > Yet we react (in one way or another) to people's actions; and before reacting (in one way or another) there is an evaluation, a judgement, of their actions, which is conscious and responsible, or unconscious and irresponsible.
 > 
 > "The one who judges himself learns justice, not he who is occupied in judging others."
 > A sufi proverb
 > 
 > adelasie wrote: Carlos,
 > 
 > I have said what I have to say on this subject. As I mentioned 
 > before, I'm not interested in a debate. You are welcome to believe 
 > whatever you wish and to conduct your life accordingly. I simply want 
 > to represent alternatives to your opinions for the sake of open study 
 > of theosophy. 
 > 
 > Adelasie
 > 
 > On 27 Nov 2006 at 10:15, carlosaveline wrote:
 > 
 > > Adelasie,
 > > 
 > > We cannot know another's heart?
 > > 
 > > Well, in principle, we do know that everyone has a Buddhic principle in his or her heart, OK?
 > > 
 > > Yet we react (in one way or another) to people's actions; and before reacting (in one way or another) there is an evaluation, a judgement, of their actions, which is conscious and responsible, or unconscious and irresponsible. 
 > > 
 > > We take decisions as to how to act/intereact in life and judgements are necessary for better decisions. 
 > > 
 > > You have to choose how to relate to liars and criminals, in society. 
 > > 
 > > And Confucius said that when criminals are not punished, then honest people are being punished. The same thing happens with regard to mistakes or dishonesties smaller than crimes. 
 > > 
 > > Therefore, Adelasie, in any list of Paramitas or Qualities needed for spiritual knowledge, you will see Discernment, Viveka; and also Virya, a higher kind of Courage. And indifference to personal pain. 
 > > 
 > > Do you believe St. Francis of Assis was "uncapable of judging" those who behaved in a treacherous way in his Order? 
 > > 
 > > Do you think the XIV Dalai Lama does not have the courage to face treason in his own "priesthood"? 
 > > 
 > > Regards, Carlos. 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
 > > 
 > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
 > > 
 > > Cópia:
 > > 
 > > Data:Sun, 26 Nov 2006 07:16:34 -0800
 > > 
 > > Assunto:Re: Theos-World To Adelasie on Judging
 > > 
 > > > Carlos,
 > > > 
 > > > As I said, you are welcome to think what you want to think. Karma 
 > > > will ultimately teach each of us what is true about this subject. 
 > > > 
 > > > > But let me ask: how can we explain the popular but false assumption 
 > > > that it is "unbrotherly and unspiritual" to make evaluations or 
 > > > judgements 
 > > > about other people´s actions? 
 > > > 
 > > > We simply cannot know another's heart. We cannot know another's 
 > > > motive. We can judge all we like, but we will very likely be wrong. 
 > > > We base our judgements of others on what we observe, and what we 
 > > > observe is a reflection of who and what we are. The actions of others 
 > > > may seem wrong to us. We may even learn something about human 
 > > > behavior, about what we choose to emulate or what we choose to avoid, 
 > > > but ultimately we cannot judge even the actions of others. Where in 
 > > > theosophical literature does it say otherwise?
 > > > > 
 > > > > The origin of that belief may help us understand it. 
 > > > 
 > > > "Judge not lest ye be judged," is a bit older than the Spanish 
 > > > Inquisition. It is a part of the ageless wisdom, the heritage of 
 > > > humanity, as expressed in the Bible, one of the most occult books of 
 > > > western civilization.
 > > > > 
 > > > > Medieval Christian Church burned thousands of people alive. It not only 
 > > > judged them but comdemned them to torture followed by death, for the 
 > > > 
 > > > crime of thinking for themselves and of questioning established 
 > > > Opinions. 
 > > > 
 > > > It seems that such a condition is a natural result of ignoring the 
 > > > injunction to "Judge not."
 > > > > 
 > > > > Simultaneously, the same Church piously issued the fashionable thesis 
 > > > and command "do not judge", using it as an unquestionable Christian 
 > > > rule 
 > > > to be followed everywhere and at all times by all common people. Of 
 > > > course, 
 > > > priesthood alone would be in charge of judging - and condemning.
 > > > 
 > > > Sorry, Carlos, but it is just not true that the injunction to not 
 > > > judge our fellow human beings came from the post-Inquisition 
 > > > priesthood of the Catholic Church. It's been around a lot longer than 
 > > > that. When we make judgements about our brothers and sisters we 
 > > > participate in the heresy of separateness. They are us and we are 
 > > > them. We only judge ourselves, and too often use the resulting 
 > > > opinions to punish others for our own iniquities.
 > > > > 
 > > > > In fact, though, it is common knowledge that all people make judgements. 
 > > > Yet many of them - pious and religious as they are - do that in an 
 > > > unconscious way, because they do not allow themselves to think, 
 > > > or to really assess the facts and situations, before getting to a 
 > > > conclusion. 
 > > > 
 > > > Exactly.
 > > > > 
 > > > > In the New Testament, Jesus paradoxically says: 
 > > > > 
 > > > > "Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgement
 > > > is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me". 
 > > > (John, 8: 15-16.) 
 > > > > 
 > > > > "Father" corresponds to "Atma", the true Self, the "parent" of a lower self. 
 > > > Judgements, id est, evaluations and assessments made in the 
 > > > presence of 
 > > > Father Atma will be much better than assessments made "after the 
 > > > flesh" or 
 > > > according to appearances and instinctively or automatically. 
 > > > 
 > > > The Christos, the Avatar. the First and the Last, the Great 
 > > > Sacrifice, the Watcher on the Threshhold who will not quit His post 
 > > > until the last hour of the Manvantara has been rung, may indeed know 
 > > > more about the inner life of a human being than I do. But he also 
 > > > says he judges no man. 
 > > > > 
 > > > > And this, again, will depend on Antahkarana, one´s ability to listen to 
 > > > the `voice of the silence´. 
 > > > 
 > > > As does all.
 > > > > 
 > > > > The prohibition of "judging" is a paralysis of Manas, the mind. 
 > > > 
 > > > So here we have a good example of how two diametrically opposed 
 > > > statements can both be true, depending on one's point of view. I 
 > > > would say the exact opposite, that judging one's fellow human beings 
 > > > is a result of paralysis of the faculty of Manas, the mind. 
 > > > 
 > > > This 
 > > > prohibition of thinking is connected to ancient Taboos which Sigmund 
 > > > 
 > > > Freud analysed well as he tried to explain modern religiously 
 > > > dogmatic behaviour. 
 > > > > 
 > > > > Surprising as it may be, there are several other important points in which 
 > > > Freud says the same thing as the Esoteric Philosophy, only under a 
 > > > scientific 
 > > > language. He often takes precise photographs of the workings of 
 > > > lower 
 > > > quaternary in human beings. 
 > > > > 
 > > > > Freud´s book "Totem and Taboo" help us explain the `manasic paralysis´, 
 > > > or `manasic suspension´, that we can observe in "theological" 
 > > > operations 
 > > > and in some pseudo-theosophical circles, as well. The pretext for 
 > > > that selective 
 > > > mental paralysis by which people renounce their individual 
 > > > discernment is 
 > > > sometimes "having faith"; othertimes oeot judging. 
 > > > 
 > > > Faith is a good quality to cultivate. So are trust and acceptance. 
 > > > It may be confusing to try to disprove the ancient wisdom by means of 
 > > > Christian methods of debate. Christianity is nearing the end of its 
 > > > cycle and, although it doubtless did some great good in its time, in 
 > > > many ways it is now being misused to prove the opposite of the 
 > > > teachings of its founder, the Master Christ.
 > > > > 
 > > > > The management of deep collective unconscious fears is the key for 
 > > > the efficiency of such authoritarian group prohibitions against the 
 > > > free 
 > > > use of thought by "common individuals". 
 > > > 
 > > > Indeed, free use of thought such as, "Love ye one another." 
 > > > 
 > > > Again please let me say that this is not a debate. You have a right 
 > > > to think as you do. We all do, and if we are wrong, time and Karma 
 > > > will show us the error of our ways. But it still seems important to 
 > > > me to represent what I understand as an alternative to some of the 
 > > > things you say.
 > > > 
 > > > Best wishes,
 > > > Adelasie.
 > > > >
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > 
 > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
 > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
 > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1164554720.414755.8861.almora.hst.terra.com.br,9570,Des15,Des15
 > > > 
 > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
 > > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 24/11/2006 / Versão: 4.4.00/4904
 > > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/
 > > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 > > 
 > > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > ---------------------------------
 > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
 > 
 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > Yahoo! Groups Links
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
 > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
 > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1164681593.684377.13860.alcala.hst.terra.com.br,13187,Des15,Des15
 > 
 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
 > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 27/11/2006 / Versão: 4.4.00/4905
 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/
 > 
 
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
     
                       

 
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]