Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01283)

What I meant was that Mesmer was Blavatsky's contra part as The 
Messenger. I also see St. Germain as a greater Occultist then 
Mesmer, but it was Mesmer that was The Messenger to the West for the 
18th century.  
So also Mesmer had direct contact with the source, and the source 
was and is the Brotherhood of the Masters, which is not a 
geographical place.

Carl

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
> 
> You say: 
> 
> "I personally can't see any reason to believe that St. Germain was 
> Blavatsky's contra part during the 18th century." 
> 
> You are free not to see that,  but both HPB and the ML suggested 
the idea, which is far from being originally mine. 
> 
> Mesmer and others (including Cagliostro) did not have the same 
degree of occult learning as HPB and St. Germain had.  Both had 
direct contact with the source, and for both "HOME" was -- in the 
Himalayas, not in Europe. 
> 
> Carlos. 
> 
>  
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:59:31 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World The 18th century Messengers
> 
> > The 18th century Messengers
> > 
> > I personally can't see any reason to believe that St. Germain 
was 
> > Blavatsky's contra part during the 18th century. More are 
pointing 
> > at Dr. Franz Anton Mesmer, which had at his side as co-worker, 
St. 
> > Germain (Mesmer's "Judge"), Cagliostro (Mesmer's "Olcott", the 
> > organiser) and initially Chev. Casanova (similar to Crowley in 
many 
> > ways, maybe a fallen lay chela). Both the memoirs of Mesmer and 
> > Casanova are giving some interesting information on this 
subject, 
> > and the biographical notes in trial protocol of Cagliostro's as 
well.
> > 
> > And there is nothing at al, that are pointing in the direction 
that 
> > Prince Rakoczi and Count St. Germain was one and the same 
person. 
> > 
> > Who of al this 18th century occultists, which was (or are today) 
an 
> > Adept, I do not dare to say, but some of them was defiantly 
Chelas 
> > or Lay Chelas.
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Konstantin,
> > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > 
> > > It is consensus, see Clara Codd's book for example, that St. 
> > Germain as 18th century incarnation was not a full Adept. 
> > > 
> > > Besides, it is a firm consensus and common knowledge that only 
> > disciples, and never Adepts, mix with public and 
political/social 
> > events in the way St. Germain (or Cagliostro) interfered.
> > > 
> > > The reason for that is that an Adept is outside short term 
human 
> > karma and he is not willing to go against evolution and go back 
in 
> > his path. 
> > > 
> > > This is also a key concept to understand the necessary 
Autonomy of 
> > the Disciple. 
> > > 
> > > In the ML, Masters explain that if Disciples were not 
Autonomous 
> > and Responsible for their own actions, the Karma would belong to 
> > their Teachers, and not to them. 
> > > 
> > > Therefore St. Germain, who strongly interacted with political, 
> > public and social issues, was not an Adept. 
> > > 
> > > The incarnation in which an Initiate will get the decisive 
> > initiation needs to be a new one. Magnetical reasons included. 
> > > 
> > > Besides, the Leadbeaterian ritualistic fancies, ascribed to 
St. 
> > Germain, clash in substance and content with the Masters' 
teachings, 
> > while we know that the Teachings of different Masters never 
clash 
> > except in wording. 
> > > 
> > > Finally, you can see that the large amount of wild 
> > ritualisticfancies (including the ER) created by poor Leadbeater 
and 
> > ascribed to "St. Germain" were no more than fancies, while an 
Adept 
> > does not do that kind of thing. 
> > > 
> > > So, you see there is a mass of hints and evidences about that. 
> > > 
> > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Cópia:
> > > 
> > > Data:Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:31:35 -0000
> > > 
> > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: St. Germain Not Leadbeaterian, At All
> > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Rakoczi is a name which also corresponds to the same 
> > incarnation as 
> > > > "St. Germain".
> > > > 
> > > > As far I know, nor Leadbeater neither any other theosophical 
> > author 
> > > > who regards St. Germain an adept, didn't hold an opinion 
that he 
> > died 
> > > > in the end of 18th century.
> > > > Leadbeater when wrote about 1911 meant certainly the same 
> > incarnation.
> > > > 
> > > > From the other sources we can conclude that St. Germain was 
an 
> > adept 
> > > > already in 18th century, otherwise it would be hard to 
explain 
> > how the 
> > > > old ladies recognized in him a man whom they knew in their 
> > youth, and 
> > > > still looking young when they were already old.
> > > > 
> > > > So Leadbeater had to need to invent any new names and 
> > incarnations.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente 
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