Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01258)

Carlos wrote
Yet we react (in one way or another) to people's actions; and before reacting (in one way or another) there is an evaluation, a judgement, of their actions, which is conscious and responsible, or unconscious and irresponsible.

"The one who judges himself learns justice, not he who is occupied in judging others."
A sufi proverb

adelasie <adelasie@sbcglobal.net> wrote:                                  Carlos,
 
 I have said what I have to say on this subject. As I mentioned 
 before, I'm not interested in a debate. You are welcome to believe 
 whatever you wish and to conduct your life accordingly. I simply want 
 to represent alternatives to your opinions for the sake of open study 
 of theosophy. 
 
 Adelasie
 
 On 27 Nov 2006 at 10:15, carlosaveline wrote:
 
 > Adelasie,
 > 
 > We cannot know another's heart?
 > 
 > Well, in principle, we do know that everyone has a Buddhic principle in his or her heart, OK?
 > 
 > Yet we react (in one way or another) to people's actions; and before reacting (in one way or another) there is an evaluation, a judgement, of their actions, which is conscious and responsible, or unconscious and irresponsible. 
 > 
 > We take decisions as to how to act/intereact in life and judgements are necessary for better decisions. 
 > 
 > You have to choose how to relate to liars and criminals, in society. 
 > 
 > And Confucius said that when criminals are not punished, then honest people are being punished.  The same thing happens with regard to mistakes or dishonesties smaller than crimes. 
 > 
 > Therefore, Adelasie, in any list of Paramitas or Qualities needed for spiritual knowledge, you will see Discernment, Viveka;  and also Virya, a higher kind of Courage.  And indifference to personal pain. 
 > 
 > Do you believe St. Francis of Assis was "uncapable of judging" those who behaved in a treacherous way in his Order? 
 > 
 > Do you think the XIV Dalai Lama does not have the courage to face treason in his own "priesthood"? 
 > 
 > Regards,  Carlos. 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
 > 
 > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
 > 
 > Cópia:
 > 
 > Data:Sun, 26 Nov 2006 07:16:34 -0800
 > 
 > Assunto:Re: Theos-World To Adelasie on Judging
 > 
 > > Carlos,
 > > 
 > > As I said, you are welcome to think what you want to think. Karma 
 > > will ultimately teach each of us what is true about this subject. 
 > > 
 > > > But let me ask: how can we explain the popular but false assumption 
 > > that it is "unbrotherly and unspiritual" to make evaluations or 
 > > judgements 
 > > about other people´s actions? 
 > > 
 > > We simply cannot know another's heart. We cannot know another's 
 > > motive. We can judge all we like, but we will very likely be wrong. 
 > > We base our judgements of others on what we observe, and what we 
 > > observe is a reflection of who and what we are. The actions of others 
 > > may seem wrong to us. We may even learn something about human 
 > > behavior, about what we choose to emulate or what we choose to avoid, 
 > > but ultimately we cannot judge even the actions of others. Where in 
 > > theosophical literature does it say otherwise?
 > > > 
 > > > The origin of that belief may help us understand it. 
 > > 
 > > "Judge not lest ye be judged," is a bit older than the Spanish 
 > > Inquisition. It is a part of the ageless wisdom, the heritage of 
 > > humanity, as expressed in the Bible, one of the most occult books of 
 > > western civilization.
 > > > 
 > > > Medieval Christian Church burned thousands of people alive. It not only 
 > > judged them but comdemned them to torture followed by death, for the 
 > > 
 > > crime of thinking for themselves and of questioning established 
 > > Opinions. 
 > > 
 > > It seems that such a condition is a natural result of ignoring the 
 > > injunction to "Judge not."
 > > > 
 > > > Simultaneously, the same Church piously issued the fashionable thesis 
 > > and command "do not judge", using it as an unquestionable Christian 
 > > rule 
 > > to be followed everywhere and at all times by all common people. Of 
 > > course, 
 > > priesthood alone would be in charge of judging - and condemning.
 > > 
 > > Sorry, Carlos, but it is just not true that the injunction to not 
 > > judge our fellow human beings came from the post-Inquisition 
 > > priesthood of the Catholic Church. It's been around a lot longer than 
 > > that. When we make judgements about our brothers and sisters we 
 > > participate in the heresy of separateness. They are us and we are 
 > > them. We only judge ourselves, and too often use the resulting 
 > > opinions to punish others for our own iniquities.
 > > > 
 > > > In fact, though, it is common knowledge that all people make judgements. 
 > > Yet many of them - pious and religious as they are - do that in an 
 > > unconscious way, because they do not allow themselves to think, 
 > > or to really assess the facts and situations, before getting to a 
 > > conclusion. 
 > > 
 > > Exactly.
 > > > 
 > > > In the New Testament, Jesus paradoxically says: 
 > > > 
 > > > "Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgement
 > > is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me". 
 > > (John, 8: 15-16.) 
 > > > 
 > > > "Father" corresponds to "Atma", the true Self, the "parent" of a lower self. 
 > > Judgements, id est, evaluations and assessments made in the 
 > > presence of 
 > > Father Atma will be much better than assessments made "after the 
 > > flesh" or 
 > > according to appearances and instinctively or automatically. 
 > > 
 > > The Christos, the Avatar. the First and the Last, the Great 
 > > Sacrifice, the Watcher on the Threshhold who will not quit His post 
 > > until the last hour of the Manvantara has been rung, may indeed know 
 > > more about the inner life of a human being than I do. But he also 
 > > says he judges no man. 
 > > > 
 > > > And this, again, will depend on Antahkarana, one´s ability to listen to 
 > > the `voice of the silence´. 
 > > 
 > > As does all.
 > > > 
 > > > The prohibition of "judging" is a paralysis of Manas, the mind. 
 > > 
 > > So here we have a good example of how two diametrically opposed 
 > > statements can both be true, depending on one's point of view. I 
 > > would say the exact opposite, that judging one's fellow human beings 
 > > is a result of paralysis of the faculty of Manas, the mind. 
 > > 
 > > This 
 > > prohibition of thinking is connected to ancient Taboos which Sigmund 
 > > 
 > > Freud analysed well as he tried to explain modern religiously 
 > > dogmatic behaviour. 
 > > > 
 > > > Surprising as it may be, there are several other important points in which 
 > > Freud says the same thing as the Esoteric Philosophy, only under a 
 > > scientific 
 > > language. He often takes precise photographs of the workings of 
 > > lower 
 > > quaternary in human beings. 
 > > > 
 > > > Freud´s book "Totem and Taboo" help us explain the `manasic paralysis´, 
 > > or `manasic suspension´, that we can observe in "theological" 
 > > operations 
 > > and in some pseudo-theosophical circles, as well. The pretext for 
 > > that selective 
 > > mental paralysis by which people renounce their individual 
 > > discernment is 
 > > sometimes "having faith"; othertimes oeot judging. 
 > > 
 > > Faith is a good quality to cultivate. So are trust and acceptance. 
 > > It may be confusing to try to disprove the ancient wisdom by means of 
 > > Christian methods of debate. Christianity is nearing the end of its 
 > > cycle and, although it doubtless did some great good in its time, in 
 > > many ways it is now being misused to prove the opposite of the 
 > > teachings of its founder, the Master Christ.
 > > > 
 > > > The management of deep collective unconscious fears is the key for 
 > > the efficiency of such authoritarian group prohibitions against the 
 > > free 
 > > use of thought by "common individuals". 
 > > 
 > > Indeed, free use of thought such as, "Love ye one another." 
 > > 
 > > Again please let me say that this is not a debate. You have a right 
 > > to think as you do. We all do, and if we are wrong, time and Karma 
 > > will show us the error of our ways. But it still seems important to 
 > > me to represent what I understand as an alternative to some of the 
 > > things you say.
 > > 
 > > Best wishes,
 > > Adelasie.
 > > >
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > Yahoo! Groups Links
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
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