Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00632)

Krsanna,

What you claim to be "noticing" DID NOT HAPPEN AND WAS INVENTED BY AN 
OBSESSED, MALEVOLENT individual.  I did not "carefully avoid" 
anything at all but responded to Steve openly, honestly and fully 
about *what I most admire about HPB* BECAUSE THAT IS THE QUESTION 
ASKED.  Carlos is trying to turn an entirely positive statement about 
HPB into an attack, which is twisted and ugly behavior on his part-- 
and yours when you endorse such dishonest, sectarian aggression.  As 
for your question about the first object, I did not notice it so 
sorry I missed it.

As for the third thing you "noticed" I did not ask anyone's consensus 
about anything.  Just said I'd stay if there was a consensus wishing 
me to.  Having joined ARE in 1995 and left the TS the following year, 
my status as an ex-Theosophist here is very old news indeed.
Is there anything problematic for you about someone who is not a 
Theosophist participating here?  Why?

Paul


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krsanna" <timestar@...> wrote:
>
> Carlos -- I noticed.  Also, I  noticed that Paul did not respond to 
> my question regarding HPB living the first object as a condition of 
> her life in the immense internationality he admires in her.  In 
this 
> way, he has not commented on HPB's integrity regarding the first 
> object she taught, part and parcel of the objects the Mahatmas 
> assigned to The Theosophical Society at its founding in 1874, which 
> HPB achieved in remarkable ways.  This would acknowledge, at least, 
> the genuineness of her intent in bringing Theosophy to the modern 
> world.
> 
> I noticed as well that he asked for a consensus that he should 
> remain on the list as a student of Edgar Cayce (ARE) and the Church 
> of Light but not as a Theosophist. 
> 
> Krsanna
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" 
> <carlosaveline@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Steve and Krsanna,
> > 
> > 
> > Please note  that Paul carefully avoided admitting, below, that  
> HPB was an 
> > honest woman;
> > or admitting that she was not a fraud;   or admitting that she 
> never was or 
> > offered herself to be a
> > RUSSIAN SPY!
> > 
> > If he had admitted that, he would have contradicted his own books 
> and 
> > writings.
> > 
> > Please take that into consideration.
> > 
> > Paul is is "praising" HPB  for the size of her character in 
> History. This 
> > has no value at all from the spiritual, ethical, moral  or occult 
> > viewpoints.
> > 
> > As one Mahatma wrote, "an honest beggar is much better than a 
> immoral 
> > emperor" --- under Karma and for the Masters.
> > 
> > So the point is  -- HPB's libellers will not admit she was 
> honest... and 
> > they will suggest the opposite.
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards, Carlos.
> > 
> > >From: Steven Levey <sallev1@>
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: Theos-World What I most admire
> > >Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:10:11 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >My thanks also, Paul.
> > >
> > >   Steve
> > >
> > >kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@> wrote:
> > >   Dear Krsanna,
> > >
> > >Perhaps the most honest answer to your question is right off the 
> top
> > >of my head: her internationalism.
> > >
> > >I came to HPB as a follower in my late 20s. Dived into her books,
> > >the SD especially, and led a Pasadena TS branch in the 1980s for 
> ten
> > >years. Through all that time her writings were at the spiritual
> > >heart of my worldview and books like the SD and Voice were most
> > >important to defining it. But gradually by the late 1980s I 
became
> > >more interested in books like Caves and Jungles and Old Diary 
> Leaves
> > >and a more biographical narrative approach. Cayce became more
> > >central to my spiritual worldview once the Theosophical caca 
> started
> > >to hit the fan in the mid-90s, but I was already shifting into 
ex-
> > >Theosophist consciousness by that point. What I most admire now, 
> as
> > >an ex-Theosophist in a related organization, is not at all what I
> > >most admired as a follower twenty years ago. (The spiritual
> > >authority of her writings.)
> > >
> > >It's her mind-boggling, unprecedented straddling of an amazing
> > >number of different cultures. Not just knowing people all over 
the
> > >world, starting with Kalmuck Buddhists and Russian Rosicrucians 
in
> > >her childhood and ending with British intellectuals in her old 
> age,
> > >but actually *affecting* different cultures. HPB is a significant
> > >figure in American religious history. In Indian cultural and
> > >political history. (Break that down into Bengali-- Punjabi-- etc.
> > >for the full impact.) In English literary history. In Russian art
> > >and musical history. On and on. I can think of no one else of her
> > >era, and certainly no woman, who managed to influence so many
> > >aspects of so many cultures.
> > >
> > >Does that help?
> > >
> > >Paul
> > >
> > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krsanna" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Before you decide to leave the list, could you help out with 
> some
> > > > questions. Please? Most of what I have seen in your posts is
> > > > defense that denies allegations made against you.
> > > >
> > > > Please tell me a little about what you do think, believe and 
> feel
> > > > before leaving. In other words, be a little more proactive in
> > > > stating your position. This is for my benefit, so I never 
have 
> to
> > > > look back and wonder what Paul Johnson really thought. I'm 
sure
> > >you
> > > > have stated your position in other contexts, i.e., your book.
> > > > However, would you be kind enough to elaborate a little?
> > > >
> > > > We don't have a significant religious event to commemorate 
> with a
> > > > cease fire -- Christmas and Ramadan are not approaching.
> > > > Nonetheless, we could call a cease fire for 24 hours with no
> > >attacks
> > > > while we listen to what you have to say.
> > > >
> > > > We can think of this as the Ides of March Cease Fire. The St.
> > > > Patty's Day Cease Fire in honor of the fighting Irish might be
> > >good
> > > > too. Demilitarizing a zone for 24 hours never hurt anybody.
> > > >
> > > > FIRST QUESTION: You say below that you admire HPB and her 
books
> > > > very much. Will you elaborte on what it is that you admire 
> about
> > > > HPB?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Krsanna Duran
> > > >
> > > > "I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 20 
> years
> > > > freely shared my views of her and researches on her with 
fellow
> > > > Theosophists with no problems. No one ever suggested to me 
> that I
> > > > was not a Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters
> > >Revealed,
> > > > Joscelyn Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the middle
> > > > ground. He obviously has a great respect and admiration for 
> HPB,
> > > > but he has no illusions as to the mischievous and even dark 
> sides
> > >of
> > > > her personality. He observes the convention without which
> > > > scholarship would be impossible, namely that of not imposing 
> one's
> > > > own religious beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he
> > >evidently
> > > > believes that HPB and her Masters achieved something of 
> tremendous
> > > > importance for the human race." That is just as true today as
> > >when
> > > > he wrote it in 1994. It is clearly however not good enough to
> > > > satisfy Theosophical inquisitors. How many furiously 
> antagonistic
> > > > attacks does it take before one fears to express his views?"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Anand,
> > > > >
> > > > > As I have just learned, when I leave the list because of the
> > > > recent
> > > > > degradation of atmosphere I won't be the first to do so. You
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Paul,
> > > > > > It appears that some people don't like your work 'Masters
> > > > Revealed'
> > > > > > They are trying to make you go out of talk-lists.
> > >Unfortunately
> > > > you
> > > > > > seem to be surrendering by leaving this theos-talk.
> > > > >
> > > > > To stay and fight would also be a kind of surrender; 
> surrender
> > >to
> > > > an
> > > > > untheosophical atmosphere on an alleged theosophical list. 
To
> > > > stay and
> > > > > not fight would be surrendering to abuse. I don't see a good
> > > > > alternative here.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even if you
> > > > > > leave the list, they will try to demean you and your 
book. 
> So
> > >I
> > > > would
> > > > > > suggest you to stay.
> > > > > > Suppose you don't accept Blavatsky, why do you fear to 
say 
> so
> > > > > openly ?
> > > > >
> > > > > I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 20 
> years
> > > > freely
> > > > > shared my views of her and researches on her with fellow
> > > > Theosophists
> > > > > with no problems. No one ever suggested to me that I was 
not 
> a
> > > > > Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters Revealed,
> > >Joscelyn
> > > > > Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the middle 
ground.
> > >He
> > > > > obviously has a great respect and admiration for HPB, but 
he 
> has
> > > > no
> > > > > illusions as to the mischievous and even dark sides of her
> > > > > personality. He observes the convention without which
> > >scholarship
> > > > > would be impossible, namely that of not imposing one's own
> > > > religious
> > > > > beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he evidently 
> believes
> > > > that
> > > > > HPB and her Masters achieved something of tremendous 
> importance
> > > > for the
> > > > > human race." That is just as true today as when he wrote it 
> in
> > > > 1994.
> > > > > It is clearly however not good enough to satisfy 
Theosophical
> > > > > inquisitors. How many furiously antagonistic attacks does it
> > >take
> > > > > before one fears to express his views?
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is not necessary that you should accept Blavatsky or
> > >anybody
> > > > else.
> > > > > > TS gives complete freedom to all.
> > > > > > After coming in contact, I soon realized that Blavatsyans 
> have
> > > > > > problematic mental structure which was result of perhaps 
> study
> > > > of
> > > > > > Blavatky's writing.
> > > > > > AG
> > > > >
> > > > > As Erica has just shown, there are abundant quotes from HPB 
> that
> > > > put to
> > > > > shame all the hatefulness her supposed followers have 
> expressed
> > > > towards
> > > > > those who don't share their beliefs. I would suggest that
> > >rather
> > > > than
> > > > > HPB's writings per se, there is something problematic about 
> the
> > > > > association between esotericism and elitism. "We know 
> spiritual
> > > > > secrets, and we're superior to those who don't" is bad 
enough
> > >when
> > > > it's
> > > > > a sentiment shared within a private club like the ES. When 
it
> > > > becomes
> > > > > a *public* stance of contemptuous dismissal of everything
> > >outside
> > > > a
> > > > > narrow range of Theosophical orthodoxy, it becomes a total
> > > > reversal of
> > > > > everything HPB stood for. As someone just wrote me in 
private
> > > > email,
> > > > > what theos-talk has become represents HPB's worst nightmare.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >Yahoo! Mail
> > >Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
>