Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00644)

Paul wrote:  "Just said I'd stay [on the list] if there was a 
consensus wishing me to."  Do you have a way of determining 
consensus exists for your staying other than by asking?  It seems 
from your most recent post that you didn't really intend to ask for 
consensus, but may be able to divine the wishes of others without 
asking.  My error was to assume you were sufficiently interested in 
consensus to ask for it.  

This is an unmoderated list that does not require consensus or 
approval from anyone for your participation.   You have engaged in 
far more discussion and concern about your participation on the list 
than I have.   

Thanks for letting me know that you had not seen my question about 
the first object in my response to your mail.  I wondered why you 
did not answer the question.

I look forward to seeing how you handled conclusions about the 
Mahatmas identities, and hope they are more objective than your 
opinions of my communication with Carlos.  To assume that I "endorse 
such dishonest, sectarian aggression" because I answered Carlos' 
question is a a narrow view.  

At the time of communicating with Carlos, I was still waiting for 
your answer to my question about the 1st object and receipt of TMR, 
before drawing any conclusions.  

I am capable of making observations and drawing conclusions 
independently of you or Carlos.  I don't need either of you to 
interpret my communications with the other.  I have drawn no 
conclusions about your book and stated exactly what I noticed about 
your communication with me.  

Best regards,
Krsanna Duran


r your question about the first object, I did not notice it so 
> sorry I missed it.


 


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" <kpauljohnson@...> 
wrote:
>
> Krsanna,
> 
> What you claim to be "noticing" DID NOT HAPPEN AND WAS INVENTED BY 
AN 
> OBSESSED, MALEVOLENT individual.  I did not "carefully avoid" 
> anything at all but responded to Steve openly, honestly and fully 
> about *what I most admire about HPB* BECAUSE THAT IS THE QUESTION 
> ASKED.  Carlos is trying to turn an entirely positive statement 
about 
> HPB into an attack, which is twisted and ugly behavior on his part-
- 
> and yours when you endorse such dishonest, sectarian aggression.  
As 
> for your question about the first object, I did not notice it so 
> sorry I missed it.
> 
> As for the third thing you "noticed" I did not ask anyone's 
consensus 
> about anything.  Just said I'd stay if there was a consensus 
wishing 
> me to.  Having joined ARE in 1995 and left the TS the following 
year, 
> my status as an ex-Theosophist here is very old news indeed.
> Is there anything problematic for you about someone who is not a 
> Theosophist participating here?  Why?
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krsanna" <timestar@> wrote:
> >
> > Carlos -- I noticed.  Also, I  noticed that Paul did not respond 
to 
> > my question regarding HPB living the first object as a condition 
of 
> > her life in the immense internationality he admires in her.  In 
> this 
> > way, he has not commented on HPB's integrity regarding the first 
> > object she taught, part and parcel of the objects the Mahatmas 
> > assigned to The Theosophical Society at its founding in 1874, 
which 
> > HPB achieved in remarkable ways.  This would acknowledge, at 
least, 
> > the genuineness of her intent in bringing Theosophy to the 
modern 
> > world.
> > 
> > I noticed as well that he asked for a consensus that he should 
> > remain on the list as a student of Edgar Cayce (ARE) and the 
Church 
> > of Light but not as a Theosophist. 
> > 
> > Krsanna
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso 
aveline" 
> > <carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dear Steve and Krsanna,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please note  that Paul carefully avoided admitting, below, 
that  
> > HPB was an 
> > > honest woman;
> > > or admitting that she was not a fraud;   or admitting that she 
> > never was or 
> > > offered herself to be a
> > > RUSSIAN SPY!
> > > 
> > > If he had admitted that, he would have contradicted his own 
books 
> > and 
> > > writings.
> > > 
> > > Please take that into consideration.
> > > 
> > > Paul is is "praising" HPB  for the size of her character in 
> > History. This 
> > > has no value at all from the spiritual, ethical, moral  or 
occult 
> > > viewpoints.
> > > 
> > > As one Mahatma wrote, "an honest beggar is much better than a 
> > immoral 
> > > emperor" --- under Karma and for the Masters.
> > > 
> > > So the point is  -- HPB's libellers will not admit she was 
> > honest... and 
> > > they will suggest the opposite.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Best regards, Carlos.
> > > 
> > > >From: Steven Levey <sallev1@>
> > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World What I most admire
> > > >Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:10:11 -0800 (PST)
> > > >
> > > >My thanks also, Paul.
> > > >
> > > >   Steve
> > > >
> > > >kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@> wrote:
> > > >   Dear Krsanna,
> > > >
> > > >Perhaps the most honest answer to your question is right off 
the 
> > top
> > > >of my head: her internationalism.
> > > >
> > > >I came to HPB as a follower in my late 20s. Dived into her 
books,
> > > >the SD especially, and led a Pasadena TS branch in the 1980s 
for 
> > ten
> > > >years. Through all that time her writings were at the 
spiritual
> > > >heart of my worldview and books like the SD and Voice were 
most
> > > >important to defining it. But gradually by the late 1980s I 
> became
> > > >more interested in books like Caves and Jungles and Old Diary 
> > Leaves
> > > >and a more biographical narrative approach. Cayce became more
> > > >central to my spiritual worldview once the Theosophical caca 
> > started
> > > >to hit the fan in the mid-90s, but I was already shifting 
into 
> ex-
> > > >Theosophist consciousness by that point. What I most admire 
now, 
> > as
> > > >an ex-Theosophist in a related organization, is not at all 
what I
> > > >most admired as a follower twenty years ago. (The spiritual
> > > >authority of her writings.)
> > > >
> > > >It's her mind-boggling, unprecedented straddling of an amazing
> > > >number of different cultures. Not just knowing people all 
over 
> the
> > > >world, starting with Kalmuck Buddhists and Russian 
Rosicrucians 
> in
> > > >her childhood and ending with British intellectuals in her 
old 
> > age,
> > > >but actually *affecting* different cultures. HPB is a 
significant
> > > >figure in American religious history. In Indian cultural and
> > > >political history. (Break that down into Bengali-- Punjabi-- 
etc.
> > > >for the full impact.) In English literary history. In Russian 
art
> > > >and musical history. On and on. I can think of no one else of 
her
> > > >era, and certainly no woman, who managed to influence so many
> > > >aspects of so many cultures.
> > > >
> > > >Does that help?
> > > >
> > > >Paul
> > > >
> > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krsanna" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Before you decide to leave the list, could you help out 
with 
> > some
> > > > > questions. Please? Most of what I have seen in your posts 
is
> > > > > defense that denies allegations made against you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please tell me a little about what you do think, believe 
and 
> > feel
> > > > > before leaving. In other words, be a little more proactive 
in
> > > > > stating your position. This is for my benefit, so I never 
> have 
> > to
> > > > > look back and wonder what Paul Johnson really thought. I'm 
> sure
> > > >you
> > > > > have stated your position in other contexts, i.e., your 
book.
> > > > > However, would you be kind enough to elaborate a little?
> > > > >
> > > > > We don't have a significant religious event to commemorate 
> > with a
> > > > > cease fire -- Christmas and Ramadan are not approaching.
> > > > > Nonetheless, we could call a cease fire for 24 hours with 
no
> > > >attacks
> > > > > while we listen to what you have to say.
> > > > >
> > > > > We can think of this as the Ides of March Cease Fire. The 
St.
> > > > > Patty's Day Cease Fire in honor of the fighting Irish 
might be
> > > >good
> > > > > too. Demilitarizing a zone for 24 hours never hurt anybody.
> > > > >
> > > > > FIRST QUESTION: You say below that you admire HPB and her 
> books
> > > > > very much. Will you elaborte on what it is that you admire 
> > about
> > > > > HPB?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Krsanna Duran
> > > > >
> > > > > "I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 20 
> > years
> > > > > freely shared my views of her and researches on her with 
> fellow
> > > > > Theosophists with no problems. No one ever suggested to me 
> > that I
> > > > > was not a Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters
> > > >Revealed,
> > > > > Joscelyn Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the 
middle
> > > > > ground. He obviously has a great respect and admiration 
for 
> > HPB,
> > > > > but he has no illusions as to the mischievous and even 
dark 
> > sides
> > > >of
> > > > > her personality. He observes the convention without which
> > > > > scholarship would be impossible, namely that of not 
imposing 
> > one's
> > > > > own religious beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he
> > > >evidently
> > > > > believes that HPB and her Masters achieved something of 
> > tremendous
> > > > > importance for the human race." That is just as true today 
as
> > > >when
> > > > > he wrote it in 1994. It is clearly however not good enough 
to
> > > > > satisfy Theosophical inquisitors. How many furiously 
> > antagonistic
> > > > > attacks does it take before one fears to express his 
views?"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Anand,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I have just learned, when I leave the list because of 
the
> > > > > recent
> > > > > > degradation of atmosphere I won't be the first to do so. 
You
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello Paul,
> > > > > > > It appears that some people don't like your 
work 'Masters
> > > > > Revealed'
> > > > > > > They are trying to make you go out of talk-lists.
> > > >Unfortunately
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > seem to be surrendering by leaving this theos-talk.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To stay and fight would also be a kind of surrender; 
> > surrender
> > > >to
> > > > > an
> > > > > > untheosophical atmosphere on an alleged theosophical 
list. 
> To
> > > > > stay and
> > > > > > not fight would be surrendering to abuse. I don't see a 
good
> > > > > > alternative here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And even if you
> > > > > > > leave the list, they will try to demean you and your 
> book. 
> > So
> > > >I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > suggest you to stay.
> > > > > > > Suppose you don't accept Blavatsky, why do you fear to 
> say 
> > so
> > > > > > openly ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 
20 
> > years
> > > > > freely
> > > > > > shared my views of her and researches on her with fellow
> > > > > Theosophists
> > > > > > with no problems. No one ever suggested to me that I was 
> not 
> > a
> > > > > > Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters Revealed,
> > > >Joscelyn
> > > > > > Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the middle 
> ground.
> > > >He
> > > > > > obviously has a great respect and admiration for HPB, 
but 
> he 
> > has
> > > > > no
> > > > > > illusions as to the mischievous and even dark sides of 
her
> > > > > > personality. He observes the convention without which
> > > >scholarship
> > > > > > would be impossible, namely that of not imposing one's 
own
> > > > > religious
> > > > > > beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he evidently 
> > believes
> > > > > that
> > > > > > HPB and her Masters achieved something of tremendous 
> > importance
> > > > > for the
> > > > > > human race." That is just as true today as when he wrote 
it 
> > in
> > > > > 1994.
> > > > > > It is clearly however not good enough to satisfy 
> Theosophical
> > > > > > inquisitors. How many furiously antagonistic attacks 
does it
> > > >take
> > > > > > before one fears to express his views?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is not necessary that you should accept Blavatsky or
> > > >anybody
> > > > > else.
> > > > > > > TS gives complete freedom to all.
> > > > > > > After coming in contact, I soon realized that 
Blavatsyans 
> > have
> > > > > > > problematic mental structure which was result of 
perhaps 
> > study
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > Blavatky's writing.
> > > > > > > AG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As Erica has just shown, there are abundant quotes from 
HPB 
> > that
> > > > > put to
> > > > > > shame all the hatefulness her supposed followers have 
> > expressed
> > > > > towards
> > > > > > those who don't share their beliefs. I would suggest that
> > > >rather
> > > > > than
> > > > > > HPB's writings per se, there is something problematic 
about 
> > the
> > > > > > association between esotericism and elitism. "We know 
> > spiritual
> > > > > > secrets, and we're superior to those who don't" is bad 
> enough
> > > >when
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > a sentiment shared within a private club like the ES. 
When 
> it
> > > > > becomes
> > > > > > a *public* stance of contemptuous dismissal of everything
> > > >outside
> > > > > a
> > > > > > narrow range of Theosophical orthodoxy, it becomes a 
total
> > > > > reversal of
> > > > > > everything HPB stood for. As someone just wrote me in 
> private
> > > > > email,
> > > > > > what theos-talk has become represents HPB's worst 
nightmare.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------
> > > >Yahoo! Mail
> > > >Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.
> > > >
> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
_________________________________________________________________
> > > Copa 2006: Juiz @#$%*&!? e mais frases para seu MSN Messenger 
> > > http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/frases/
> > >
> >
>