Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00600)

Carlos -- I noticed.  Also, I  noticed that Paul did not respond to 
my question regarding HPB living the first object as a condition of 
her life in the immense internationality he admires in her.  In this 
way, he has not commented on HPB's integrity regarding the first 
object she taught, part and parcel of the objects the Mahatmas 
assigned to The Theosophical Society at its founding in 1874, which 
HPB achieved in remarkable ways.  This would acknowledge, at least, 
the genuineness of her intent in bringing Theosophy to the modern 
world.

I noticed as well that he asked for a consensus that he should 
remain on the list as a student of Edgar Cayce (ARE) and the Church 
of Light but not as a Theosophist. 

Krsanna

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Dear Steve and Krsanna,
> 
> 
> Please note  that Paul carefully avoided admitting, below, that  
HPB was an 
> honest woman;
> or admitting that she was not a fraud;   or admitting that she 
never was or 
> offered herself to be a
> RUSSIAN SPY!
> 
> If he had admitted that, he would have contradicted his own books 
and 
> writings.
> 
> Please take that into consideration.
> 
> Paul is is "praising" HPB  for the size of her character in 
History. This 
> has no value at all from the spiritual, ethical, moral  or occult 
> viewpoints.
> 
> As one Mahatma wrote, "an honest beggar is much better than a 
immoral 
> emperor" --- under Karma and for the Masters.
> 
> So the point is  -- HPB's libellers will not admit she was 
honest... and 
> they will suggest the opposite.
> 
> 
> Best regards, Carlos.
> 
> >From: Steven Levey <sallev1@...>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World What I most admire
> >Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:10:11 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >My thanks also, Paul.
> >
> >   Steve
> >
> >kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@...> wrote:
> >   Dear Krsanna,
> >
> >Perhaps the most honest answer to your question is right off the 
top
> >of my head: her internationalism.
> >
> >I came to HPB as a follower in my late 20s. Dived into her books,
> >the SD especially, and led a Pasadena TS branch in the 1980s for 
ten
> >years. Through all that time her writings were at the spiritual
> >heart of my worldview and books like the SD and Voice were most
> >important to defining it. But gradually by the late 1980s I became
> >more interested in books like Caves and Jungles and Old Diary 
Leaves
> >and a more biographical narrative approach. Cayce became more
> >central to my spiritual worldview once the Theosophical caca 
started
> >to hit the fan in the mid-90s, but I was already shifting into ex-
> >Theosophist consciousness by that point. What I most admire now, 
as
> >an ex-Theosophist in a related organization, is not at all what I
> >most admired as a follower twenty years ago. (The spiritual
> >authority of her writings.)
> >
> >It's her mind-boggling, unprecedented straddling of an amazing
> >number of different cultures. Not just knowing people all over the
> >world, starting with Kalmuck Buddhists and Russian Rosicrucians in
> >her childhood and ending with British intellectuals in her old 
age,
> >but actually *affecting* different cultures. HPB is a significant
> >figure in American religious history. In Indian cultural and
> >political history. (Break that down into Bengali-- Punjabi-- etc.
> >for the full impact.) In English literary history. In Russian art
> >and musical history. On and on. I can think of no one else of her
> >era, and certainly no woman, who managed to influence so many
> >aspects of so many cultures.
> >
> >Does that help?
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krsanna" wrote:
> > >
> > > Before you decide to leave the list, could you help out with 
some
> > > questions. Please? Most of what I have seen in your posts is
> > > defense that denies allegations made against you.
> > >
> > > Please tell me a little about what you do think, believe and 
feel
> > > before leaving. In other words, be a little more proactive in
> > > stating your position. This is for my benefit, so I never have 
to
> > > look back and wonder what Paul Johnson really thought. I'm sure
> >you
> > > have stated your position in other contexts, i.e., your book.
> > > However, would you be kind enough to elaborate a little?
> > >
> > > We don't have a significant religious event to commemorate 
with a
> > > cease fire -- Christmas and Ramadan are not approaching.
> > > Nonetheless, we could call a cease fire for 24 hours with no
> >attacks
> > > while we listen to what you have to say.
> > >
> > > We can think of this as the Ides of March Cease Fire. The St.
> > > Patty's Day Cease Fire in honor of the fighting Irish might be
> >good
> > > too. Demilitarizing a zone for 24 hours never hurt anybody.
> > >
> > > FIRST QUESTION: You say below that you admire HPB and her books
> > > very much. Will you elaborte on what it is that you admire 
about
> > > HPB?
> > >
> > > Thanks, Krsanna Duran
> > >
> > > "I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 20 
years
> > > freely shared my views of her and researches on her with fellow
> > > Theosophists with no problems. No one ever suggested to me 
that I
> > > was not a Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters
> >Revealed,
> > > Joscelyn Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the middle
> > > ground. He obviously has a great respect and admiration for 
HPB,
> > > but he has no illusions as to the mischievous and even dark 
sides
> >of
> > > her personality. He observes the convention without which
> > > scholarship would be impossible, namely that of not imposing 
one's
> > > own religious beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he
> >evidently
> > > believes that HPB and her Masters achieved something of 
tremendous
> > > importance for the human race." That is just as true today as
> >when
> > > he wrote it in 1994. It is clearly however not good enough to
> > > satisfy Theosophical inquisitors. How many furiously 
antagonistic
> > > attacks does it take before one fears to express his views?"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Anand,
> > > >
> > > > As I have just learned, when I leave the list because of the
> > > recent
> > > > degradation of atmosphere I won't be the first to do so. You
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Paul,
> > > > > It appears that some people don't like your work 'Masters
> > > Revealed'
> > > > > They are trying to make you go out of talk-lists.
> >Unfortunately
> > > you
> > > > > seem to be surrendering by leaving this theos-talk.
> > > >
> > > > To stay and fight would also be a kind of surrender; 
surrender
> >to
> > > an
> > > > untheosophical atmosphere on an alleged theosophical list. To
> > > stay and
> > > > not fight would be surrendering to abuse. I don't see a good
> > > > alternative here.
> > > >
> > > > And even if you
> > > > > leave the list, they will try to demean you and your book. 
So
> >I
> > > would
> > > > > suggest you to stay.
> > > > > Suppose you don't accept Blavatsky, why do you fear to say 
so
> > > > openly ?
> > > >
> > > > I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 20 
years
> > > freely
> > > > shared my views of her and researches on her with fellow
> > > Theosophists
> > > > with no problems. No one ever suggested to me that I was not 
a
> > > > Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters Revealed,
> >Joscelyn
> > > > Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the middle ground.
> >He
> > > > obviously has a great respect and admiration for HPB, but he 
has
> > > no
> > > > illusions as to the mischievous and even dark sides of her
> > > > personality. He observes the convention without which
> >scholarship
> > > > would be impossible, namely that of not imposing one's own
> > > religious
> > > > beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he evidently 
believes
> > > that
> > > > HPB and her Masters achieved something of tremendous 
importance
> > > for the
> > > > human race." That is just as true today as when he wrote it 
in
> > > 1994.
> > > > It is clearly however not good enough to satisfy Theosophical
> > > > inquisitors. How many furiously antagonistic attacks does it
> >take
> > > > before one fears to express his views?
> > > >
> > > > > It is not necessary that you should accept Blavatsky or
> >anybody
> > > else.
> > > > > TS gives complete freedom to all.
> > > > > After coming in contact, I soon realized that Blavatsyans 
have
> > > > > problematic mental structure which was result of perhaps 
study
> > > of
> > > > > Blavatky's writing.
> > > > > AG
> > > >
> > > > As Erica has just shown, there are abundant quotes from HPB 
that
> > > put to
> > > > shame all the hatefulness her supposed followers have 
expressed
> > > towards
> > > > those who don't share their beliefs. I would suggest that
> >rather
> > > than
> > > > HPB's writings per se, there is something problematic about 
the
> > > > association between esotericism and elitism. "We know 
spiritual
> > > > secrets, and we're superior to those who don't" is bad enough
> >when
> > > it's
> > > > a sentiment shared within a private club like the ES. When it
> > > becomes
> > > > a *public* stance of contemptuous dismissal of everything
> >outside
> > > a
> > > > narrow range of Theosophical orthodoxy, it becomes a total
> > > reversal of
> > > > everything HPB stood for. As someone just wrote me in private
> > > email,
> > > > what theos-talk has become represents HPB's worst nightmare.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Yahoo! Mail
> >Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
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