Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00605)

I sent the last mail too quickly, before adding a P.S. about more 
questions I have about Paul's interest.  I found a cheap, used copy 
of Paul's book and ordered it and will read it soon.  I still do not 
know what he really says about HPB in it.

Paul's admiration of HPB's internationalism caused me to wonder if 
he used this as circumstantial evidence of her suitability as a 
spy.  Rather than construe HPB's capacity for internationalism as an 
expression of her love for travel and humankind, consistent with the 
first object, I don't know how Paul treated this in his book -- if 
he did.    

She visited the Americas in 1851, at the age of 20, and traveled in 
Canada, the U.S., Mexico and Central America.  She was seeking at 
that time the wisdom she of Native America.  

Best regards,
Krsanna
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krsanna" <timestar@...> wrote:
>
> Carlos -- I noticed.  Also, I  noticed that Paul did not respond 
to 
> my question regarding HPB living the first object as a condition 
of 
> her life in the immense internationality he admires in her.  In 
this 
> way, he has not commented on HPB's integrity regarding the first 
> object she taught, part and parcel of the objects the Mahatmas 
> assigned to The Theosophical Society at its founding in 1874, 
which 
> HPB achieved in remarkable ways.  This would acknowledge, at 
least, 
> the genuineness of her intent in bringing Theosophy to the modern 
> world.
> 
> I noticed as well that he asked for a consensus that he should 
> remain on the list as a student of Edgar Cayce (ARE) and the 
Church 
> of Light but not as a Theosophist. 
> 
> Krsanna
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" 
> <carlosaveline@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Steve and Krsanna,
> > 
> > 
> > Please note  that Paul carefully avoided admitting, below, that  
> HPB was an 
> > honest woman;
> > or admitting that she was not a fraud;   or admitting that she 
> never was or 
> > offered herself to be a
> > RUSSIAN SPY!
> > 
> > If he had admitted that, he would have contradicted his own 
books 
> and 
> > writings.
> > 
> > Please take that into consideration.
> > 
> > Paul is is "praising" HPB  for the size of her character in 
> History. This 
> > has no value at all from the spiritual, ethical, moral  or 
occult 
> > viewpoints.
> > 
> > As one Mahatma wrote, "an honest beggar is much better than a 
> immoral 
> > emperor" --- under Karma and for the Masters.
> > 
> > So the point is  -- HPB's libellers will not admit she was 
> honest... and 
> > they will suggest the opposite.
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards, Carlos.
> > 
> > >From: Steven Levey <sallev1@>
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: Theos-World What I most admire
> > >Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:10:11 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >My thanks also, Paul.
> > >
> > >   Steve
> > >
> > >kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@> wrote:
> > >   Dear Krsanna,
> > >
> > >Perhaps the most honest answer to your question is right off 
the 
> top
> > >of my head: her internationalism.
> > >
> > >I came to HPB as a follower in my late 20s. Dived into her 
books,
> > >the SD especially, and led a Pasadena TS branch in the 1980s 
for 
> ten
> > >years. Through all that time her writings were at the spiritual
> > >heart of my worldview and books like the SD and Voice were most
> > >important to defining it. But gradually by the late 1980s I 
became
> > >more interested in books like Caves and Jungles and Old Diary 
> Leaves
> > >and a more biographical narrative approach. Cayce became more
> > >central to my spiritual worldview once the Theosophical caca 
> started
> > >to hit the fan in the mid-90s, but I was already shifting into 
ex-
> > >Theosophist consciousness by that point. What I most admire 
now, 
> as
> > >an ex-Theosophist in a related organization, is not at all what 
I
> > >most admired as a follower twenty years ago. (The spiritual
> > >authority of her writings.)
> > >
> > >It's her mind-boggling, unprecedented straddling of an amazing
> > >number of different cultures. Not just knowing people all over 
the
> > >world, starting with Kalmuck Buddhists and Russian Rosicrucians 
in
> > >her childhood and ending with British intellectuals in her old 
> age,
> > >but actually *affecting* different cultures. HPB is a 
significant
> > >figure in American religious history. In Indian cultural and
> > >political history. (Break that down into Bengali-- Punjabi-- 
etc.
> > >for the full impact.) In English literary history. In Russian 
art
> > >and musical history. On and on. I can think of no one else of 
her
> > >era, and certainly no woman, who managed to influence so many
> > >aspects of so many cultures.
> > >
> > >Does that help?
> > >
> > >Paul
> > >
> > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krsanna" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Before you decide to leave the list, could you help out with 
> some
> > > > questions. Please? Most of what I have seen in your posts is
> > > > defense that denies allegations made against you.
> > > >
> > > > Please tell me a little about what you do think, believe and 
> feel
> > > > before leaving. In other words, be a little more proactive in
> > > > stating your position. This is for my benefit, so I never 
have 
> to
> > > > look back and wonder what Paul Johnson really thought. I'm 
sure
> > >you
> > > > have stated your position in other contexts, i.e., your book.
> > > > However, would you be kind enough to elaborate a little?
> > > >
> > > > We don't have a significant religious event to commemorate 
> with a
> > > > cease fire -- Christmas and Ramadan are not approaching.
> > > > Nonetheless, we could call a cease fire for 24 hours with no
> > >attacks
> > > > while we listen to what you have to say.
> > > >
> > > > We can think of this as the Ides of March Cease Fire. The St.
> > > > Patty's Day Cease Fire in honor of the fighting Irish might 
be
> > >good
> > > > too. Demilitarizing a zone for 24 hours never hurt anybody.
> > > >
> > > > FIRST QUESTION: You say below that you admire HPB and her 
books
> > > > very much. Will you elaborte on what it is that you admire 
> about
> > > > HPB?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Krsanna Duran
> > > >
> > > > "I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 20 
> years
> > > > freely shared my views of her and researches on her with 
fellow
> > > > Theosophists with no problems. No one ever suggested to me 
> that I
> > > > was not a Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters
> > >Revealed,
> > > > Joscelyn Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the 
middle
> > > > ground. He obviously has a great respect and admiration for 
> HPB,
> > > > but he has no illusions as to the mischievous and even dark 
> sides
> > >of
> > > > her personality. He observes the convention without which
> > > > scholarship would be impossible, namely that of not imposing 
> one's
> > > > own religious beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he
> > >evidently
> > > > believes that HPB and her Masters achieved something of 
> tremendous
> > > > importance for the human race." That is just as true today as
> > >when
> > > > he wrote it in 1994. It is clearly however not good enough to
> > > > satisfy Theosophical inquisitors. How many furiously 
> antagonistic
> > > > attacks does it take before one fears to express his views?"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Anand,
> > > > >
> > > > > As I have just learned, when I leave the list because of 
the
> > > > recent
> > > > > degradation of atmosphere I won't be the first to do so. 
You
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Paul,
> > > > > > It appears that some people don't like your work 'Masters
> > > > Revealed'
> > > > > > They are trying to make you go out of talk-lists.
> > >Unfortunately
> > > > you
> > > > > > seem to be surrendering by leaving this theos-talk.
> > > > >
> > > > > To stay and fight would also be a kind of surrender; 
> surrender
> > >to
> > > > an
> > > > > untheosophical atmosphere on an alleged theosophical list. 
To
> > > > stay and
> > > > > not fight would be surrendering to abuse. I don't see a 
good
> > > > > alternative here.
> > > > >
> > > > > And even if you
> > > > > > leave the list, they will try to demean you and your 
book. 
> So
> > >I
> > > > would
> > > > > > suggest you to stay.
> > > > > > Suppose you don't accept Blavatsky, why do you fear to 
say 
> so
> > > > > openly ?
> > > > >
> > > > > I admire HPB and her books very much, and for close to 20 
> years
> > > > freely
> > > > > shared my views of her and researches on her with fellow
> > > > Theosophists
> > > > > with no problems. No one ever suggested to me that I was 
not 
> a
> > > > > Theosophist. In his introduction to The Masters Revealed,
> > >Joscelyn
> > > > > Godwin wrote: "Mr. Johnson's work occupies the middle 
ground.
> > >He
> > > > > obviously has a great respect and admiration for HPB, but 
he 
> has
> > > > no
> > > > > illusions as to the mischievous and even dark sides of her
> > > > > personality. He observes the convention without which
> > >scholarship
> > > > > would be impossible, namely that of not imposing one's own
> > > > religious
> > > > > beliefs on the matter to be studied. But he evidently 
> believes
> > > > that
> > > > > HPB and her Masters achieved something of tremendous 
> importance
> > > > for the
> > > > > human race." That is just as true today as when he wrote 
it 
> in
> > > > 1994.
> > > > > It is clearly however not good enough to satisfy 
Theosophical
> > > > > inquisitors. How many furiously antagonistic attacks does 
it
> > >take
> > > > > before one fears to express his views?
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is not necessary that you should accept Blavatsky or
> > >anybody
> > > > else.
> > > > > > TS gives complete freedom to all.
> > > > > > After coming in contact, I soon realized that 
Blavatsyans 
> have
> > > > > > problematic mental structure which was result of perhaps 
> study
> > > > of
> > > > > > Blavatky's writing.
> > > > > > AG
> > > > >
> > > > > As Erica has just shown, there are abundant quotes from 
HPB 
> that
> > > > put to
> > > > > shame all the hatefulness her supposed followers have 
> expressed
> > > > towards
> > > > > those who don't share their beliefs. I would suggest that
> > >rather
> > > > than
> > > > > HPB's writings per se, there is something problematic 
about 
> the
> > > > > association between esotericism and elitism. "We know 
> spiritual
> > > > > secrets, and we're superior to those who don't" is bad 
enough
> > >when
> > > > it's
> > > > > a sentiment shared within a private club like the ES. When 
it
> > > > becomes
> > > > > a *public* stance of contemptuous dismissal of everything
> > >outside
> > > > a
> > > > > narrow range of Theosophical orthodoxy, it becomes a total
> > > > reversal of
> > > > > everything HPB stood for. As someone just wrote me in 
private
> > > > email,
> > > > > what theos-talk has become represents HPB's worst 
nightmare.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >Yahoo! Mail
> > >Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
>