Theos-Talk Archives (November 2005 Message tt00087)

November 16, 2005

			
November 16, 2005

RE: Does a Clone have a Soul?

Dear Friends:


The SPIRITUAL SOUL [ ATMA / BUDDHI ] in man is immortal. It is called
"The Eternal Pilgrim." 

Reincarnation is the process of becoming wise [MANAS allied to BUDDHI ]
through progressive experience. By this process over aeons of time we were
and will be close relatives to every member of the vast whole. One of the
words used for the SPIRITUAL SOUL is the DEATHLESS MONAD. 

A Mahatma is a MONAD that has succeeded in embodying Universal Law in daily
living. This condition of wisdom is what this meant when "Perfection" is
spoken of. 

The Laws (Karmic processes) of Nature (the UNIVERSE) provide for universal
sensitivity. The moral factor [ VIRTUE ] of any decision makes for the
variations of cause and effect on an equal basis for all. 

Humanity is a vast family. THE FAMILY OF MAN .

It originated when the Universe started and the UNIVERSE is deathless.

Every being from "atom" [through "humanity"] to "Galaxy" lives under the
same laws. These LAWS are fairness, justice honesty. rectitude, sincerity,
generosity, responsibility and compassion rendered continuously and
impartially by each to all. They are impersonal and universal. They are the
basic moral factors of everyone's living. "Ignorance" consists in not
perceiving and then. acting on this basis. It should be noted that the evil
man invariably masks his nature by seeming, on the surface of his living, to
be honest and good.

The condition of us, of being "human" is an intermediate stage on this
enormous process. We are all engaged in it.
	

The following theosophical explanations may be of help:



SEVEN-FOLD MAN & UNIVERSE



DEATH of the PHYSICAL BODY

This is what is called "death" among us mortals, but it is not death for the
real man because he is deathless, persistent, immortal. He is therefore
called the Triad, or indestructible trinity, while they are known as the
Quaternary or mortal four. 

This quaternary or lower man is a product of cosmic or physical laws and
substance. It has been evolved during a lapse of ages, like any other
physical thing, from cosmic substance, and is therefore subject to physical,
physiological, and psychical laws which govern the race of man as a whole.

Hence its period of possible continuance can be calculated just as the limit
of tensile strain among the metals used in bridge building can be deduced by
the engineer. Any one collection in the form of man made up of these
constituents is therefore limited in duration by the laws of the
evolutionary period in which it exists. Just now, that is generally seventy
to one hundred years, but its possible duration is longer. Thus there are in
history instances where ordinary persons have lived to be two hundred years
of age; and by a knowledge of the occult laws of nature the possible limit
of duration may be extended nearly to four hundred years. 



.	THE VISIBLE PHYSICAL MAN IS: 
.	
.	
.	Brain, Nerves, Blood, Bones, Lymph, Muscles, Organs of Sensation and
Action, and Skin. 



.	THE UNSEEN PHYSICAL MAN IS: 
.	
.	
.	Astral Body, Passions and Desires, Life Principle (called prana or
jiva). 
.	
.	
It will be seen that the physical part of our nature is thus extended to a
second department which, though invisible to the physical eye, is
nevertheless material and subject to decay. 



REAL AND UNREAL

Because people in general have been in the habit of admitting to be real
only what they can see with the physical eye, they have at last come to
suppose that the unseen is neither real nor material. But they forgot that
even on the earth plane noxious gases are invisible though real and
powerfully material, and that water may exist in the air held suspended and
invisible until conditions alter and cause its precipitation. 

Let us recapitulate before going into details. The Real Man is the trinity
of Atma-Buddhi-Manas, or Spirit and Mind, and he uses certain agents and
instruments to get in touch with nature in order to know himself. 

These instruments and agents are found in the lower Four -- or the
Quaternary -- each principle in which category is of itself an instrument
for the particular experience belonging to its own field, the body being the
lowest, least important, and most transitory of the whole series. 

For when we arrive at the body on the way down from the Higher Mind, it can
be shown that all of its organs are in themselves senseless and useless when
deprived of the man within. 

Sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smelling do not pertain to the body but to
the second unseen physical man, the real organs for the exercise of those
powers being in the ASTRAL BODY, and those in the physical body being but
the mechanical outer instruments for making the coordination between nature
and the real organs inside. 



SOUL -- EGO -- MIND


Nearly everyone says he has a soul and a body, and there it ends. What the
soul is, and whether it is the real person or whether it has any powers of
its own, are not inquired into, the preachers usually confining themselves
to its salvation or damnation. And by thus talking of it as something
different from oneself, the people have acquired an underlying notion that
they are not souls because the soul may be lost by them. From this has come
about a tendency to materialism causing men to pay more attention to the
body than to the soul, the latter being left to the tender mercies of the
priest of the Roman Catholics, and among dissenters the care of it is most
frequently put off to the dying day. But when the true teaching is known it
will be seen that the care of the soul, which is the Self, is a vital matter
requiring attention every day, and not to be deferred without grievous
injury resulting to the whole man, both soul and body.. 



THE 7-FOLD CLASSIFICATION

H. P. Blavatsky directly from the Great Lodge of Initiates.places.the old
doctrine [of seven-fold Man] before western civilization. The
classification is: 

1.	The Body, or Rupa. 
2.	Vitality, or Prana-Jiva. 
3.	Astral Body, or Linga-Sarira. 
4.	Animal Soul, or Kama-Rupa 
5.	Human Soul, or Manas. 
6.	Spiritual Soul, or Buddhi. 
7.	Spirit, or Atma, 
	
The words in the Sanskrit language are adopted the English terms. This
classification stands to this day for all practical purposes, but it is
capable of modification and extension.
For instance, a later arrangement which places ASTRAL BODY second instead
of third in the category does not substantially alter it. It at once gives
an idea of what man is, very different from the vague description by the
words "body and soul," and also boldly challenges the materialistic
conception that mind is the product of brain, a portion of the body. 

No claim is made that these principles were hitherto unknown, for they were
all understood in various ways not only by the Hindus but by many Europeans.
Yet the compact presentation of the sevenfold constitution of man in
intimate connection with the septenary constitution of a chain of Globes
through which the being evolves, had not been given out. 

Considering these constituents in another manner, we would say that the
lower man is a composite being, but in his real nature is a unity, or
immortal being, comprising a trinity of Spirit, Discernment, and Mind which
requires four lower mortal instruments or vehicles through which to work in
matter and obtain experience from Nature. 

This trinity is that called Atma-Buddhi-Manas in Sanskrit, difficult terms
to render in English. Atma is Spirit, Buddhi is the highest power of
intellection, that which discerns and judges, and Manas is Mind. This
threefold collection is the real man; and beyond doubt the doctrine is the
origin of the theological one of the trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
The four lower instruments or vehicles are shown in this table: 


Real Man is : 

Atma, 
Buddhi, 	
Manas, 


Lower Vehicles are : 

.	The Passions and Desires, 
.	Life Principle, 
.	Astral Body, 
.	Physical Body. 


These four lower material constituents are transitory and subject to
disintegration in themselves as well as to separation from each other. When
the hour arrives for their separation to begin, the combination can no
longer be kept up, the physical body dies, the atoms of which each of the
four is composed begin to separate from each other, and the whole collection
being disjointed is no longer fit for one as an instrument for the real man.


	

Extracted from THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY 


===================================================


Correspondence of the 7 Cosmic and 7 Human "principles."


======================================================
Human aspects or	Cosmic aspects or
Principles	Principles
======================================================


TRIPLE ASPECT OF THE DEITY


1.	Universal Spirit (Atma)	The Unmanifested Logos


2.	Spiritual Soul (Buddhi)	Universal (latent) Ideation
(see Fnote p. 597)

3.	Human Soul, Mind (Manas)	Universal (or Cosmic) active
Intelligence


SPIRIT OF THE EARTH


4.	Animal Soul (Kama-Rupa)	Cosmic Chaotic energy


5.	Astral Body (Linga-Sarira)	Astral Ideation, reflecting 
terrestrial things.

6.	Life Essence (Prana)	Life Essence or Energy


7.	Body (Sthula Sarira)	The Earth.

						
[ from: SD II 596]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------


Table From: Secret Doctrine I p. 157

Seven-fold Man and His Vehicles in States of Consciousness

=============================================================
Classification in	Vedantic
Classification in
"Esoteric Buddhism"	Classification	Taraka Raja Yoga
================================================================
1 Sthula Sarira	.	. Annamaya Kosa	+ 
[Food made |
body]	|
Sthulopadhi 
|	[Jagrat 
2	Prana (Life)	.	+	|	awake in 
| Pranamaya Kosa	|	body ]
| [Sutratma]	+
3	Vehicle of Prana	|
Linga Sarira or	|				
Astral body	+		
							
4	Kama Rupa	+		
|
|
5. Mind Volitions and |	+
Feelings, etc. | Manomaya Kosa	| Sukshmopadhi
+ [Mind Sheath]	| [Swapna]
|	dreaming]
Vignanam	Vignanamaya Kosa	|	 
[Knowledge]	+
				  
							
6	Spiritual Soul	. Anandamaya Kosa	Karanopadhi
(Buddhi)	[Contemplative,	[Sushupti
blissful state]	deep
sleep ]

							
7	Atma	.	.	. Atma .	. . Atma
[Turiya 
Upeksha]
[ From: S D I p. 157]


======================================================


CLONES AND "SOUL"


Re: Cloning and a "soul"

Let us look at the basics that THEOSOPHY offers us all:

Can there be a form or body without some central intelligence that
coordinates it and provides for its existence?

Have there been "clones" made of other beings than "men?" [ see Paracelsus
and HOMUNCULI , for example]


A wise friend [JW] made this contribution some time back:

"Once you get rid of separateness then you also get rid of location
as well --and past and future too! but you don't get rid of the PRESENT, or
the mystery of self-direction ---whether it be a cell or a buddha ---- so
whatever we have as self we get it from the ONE SELF, and the type or span
of our perception is regulated by the vehicle.  

It is our "achieved spot of competence in the river of evolution" which had
no beginning and will have no end.  

Spirit has to pass through the ordeal of incarnation and life, and be
baptized with matter before it can reach experience and knowledge. After
which only it receives the baptism of soul, or self-consciousness" or
CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE ONE SELF.

When that stage is reached the choice between the two polarities,
spirit-and-matter cannot be escaped and is summed up in the phrase "bliss
immediate (form, matter, vehicle) or bliss deferred (consciousness in
widening circles, or spirit)."
 
Or as J--- G--------- would say:

"If there were actual separateness, a man could think of Self as identified
with nothing and with no one. He can't do that.  

Unless he thinks of the Self of all, he is bound to think of the separate
Self. Who is in those forms? When we say "ourselves," we are identifying
ourselves with what we see, or with what we hear, or taste, or touch, or
smell; so, the answer is there. "








Another way of looking at it is this:  

If we take the highest possible conception of Self, it is of Self as the
seer, as the perceiver.  
The moment we take the conception of Self, "I am that which sees," then,
what is it that I see? That is Self in the opposite hypostasis.  

That is why The Secret Doctrine says that Spirit and Matter ought not to be
conceived as separate realities; they are but the opposed phases or aspects
of one and the same reality.  
The moment we postulate a seer, then we postulate the seen.  

Spirit is a collective term to designate the perceiver, the seer;

Matter is a collective term to designate that which is seen.

What is it that sees? It is Self, which we name Spirit.  

What is it that is seen? Self, which we name Matter; and the Seventh
Chapter of the Gita [ p. 53 ] 
calls the Self which is seen the inferior nature; and the Self which sees
and knows, the superior nature. "



Best wishes,


D T B


====================================== 

-----Original Message-----

From: Piali Mukherjee
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:48 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: Does a Clone have a Soul?

Hi Everyone,

It is always said that the age of the body has little to do with age of the
soul. Is there a way to know one's age of the soul?

Please guide :)


Let the inner light shine brighter,
Piali

============================