Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00508)

Sept 18 2004

Friends:

Re “Y factor” -- of course as we progress linearly in this time of “waking
consciousness” in this present (acting physically) body, every choice
implies a decision which can be represented by a “Y.”  

In seeking for a “law of forgiveness, what is envisaged as compensation for
the victims? Does the law-breaker do this?  

Theosophy offers no palliatives to the wrong-doer. Hence it is not popular.
It describes a Universe fair and equal to all. It demands restitution from
the wrong-doer – no escapes and no “forgiveness.” In this "justice"will
also be shown to be "mercy." How else can selfishness be eliminated? 

This is (as I see it) THEOSOPHY’S largest objection to such a concept as
"forgiveness" is: How does the law-breaker learn?  

Is a general law of brotherhood so onerous?  

Is it necessary to take advantage of others? Or is it greed? 


My point is: -- that for such a choice, one has to have

1	an environment, and [ in total the unlimited Universe]

2	a history of a “chooser.” [What or who is a chooser?]

3	Then, in the environment (which parallels – in time -- and surrounds
the “chooser”) there are other entities with equal power to choose (or to
remain inactive, passively resisting) and alter the environment. They all
have equal lights and privileges – the laws of every land and culture
recognize this. 

4	Probing deeper what precedes a “choice?” Need, reaction, desire ?

5	Motive is determined here and then Karma begins based on that cause.

6	But motive is tenuous – an idea, a whim, a feeling, a passion, a
thought ? All are in some degree active in producing a concrete “choice,”
as an action. Right?

7	Who controls “choice?” Is it not a “thinker?” A “life-unit,” whose
intelligence has risen to the level of self-consciousness? [This
pre-supposes that the “life-unit” is an immortal. See below]

8	While it is true that thought-action produces noticeable changes in
various areas of the brain, those data do not indicate that the brain alone
originates “thought” or “desire.” They indicate that they are affected and
react – [How or why is still hypothetical. At present we have no
experimental proof.] Further. This does not obviate responsibility for the
control of individual actions.]

9	What is the nature of the “chooser?” Does it live in a body
constructed for it? Or, does it construct and alter the body (by what
power?) as it lives and reacts in its environment?

10	Finally what is the goal of any such unit Thinker, and the general
goal of its environment?

It is one thing to observe and record data. It is another to determine who
and what is acting. Add to that what is the purpose of all this
agglomeration of effects and causes?

These questions are important since the viability of the Law of Karmas has
to be shown to be active and essential for all, unit, co-units and
environment.

I hope I have made my ideas clearer.

Now if Karma is impersonal, universal, impartial, just, true to motive and
universally sensitive on at least three planes: physical, emotional and
mental; and if there is a ruling Animating Center for each Unit of
Consciousness (Monad), then is there a close relationship between every
“atom of life” and every other regardless of the present plane they are
operating on?

Is the possibility of being an “eternal Pilgrim” there?  

If so how does that affect our view of ethics and morals?


Some of THEOSOPHY’S FUNDAMENTALS are:

1	A single sensitive UNIVERSE (without any limits in time or space,
sensitivity, or power to act) consists of innumerable Units of Life /
Intelligence. Each has the same powers. Each exercises them independently.

2	Impartial, IMPERSONAL LAWS everywhere regulate the independence of
Units. The Universe is minutely sensitive to all changes made by the power
of choice. Choices are made at all levels of the progressive increments of
evolutionary ascent. 

3	Choice is always between harmony or discord, as applied to relations
between the Unit and others, or the Unit and the WHOLE. Discord, when chosen
results in selfishness and isolation, but this discord attracts the force of
harmony to heal this breach sooner or later. This is broadly, the difference
between “vice” and “virtue.” 

4	UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION considers all such Units to be immortal centers
of Energy in perpetual motion. Responsibility is in the force of an
individual’s will. It, (as individual Karma) as well as joint Karma, works
on all.

5	Brotherhood -- from “life-atom” (ignorance and childhood – Kama) -
to Galactic Awareness (maturity – named usually: “Wisdom” -- Buddhi)as a
whole, is a fact beyond probability or speculation.  

6	Every “life-period” is as a day in the vast “School of Living.”  

7	No lesson is ever “lost or forgotten. An aspect of the Unit
[Buddhi] retains this memory and builds it into a “permanent fund of the
accumulated Wisdom of Experience.”

8	The ultimate “goal” for each one of such intelligent “life-atoms”
(Monads) is self-evolution through choice, leading from “self-consciousness”
to UNIVERSAL SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS.

9	For the purpose of grasping these broad ideas, the Universe is
looked on as a “Macrocosm,” and each human unit is looked on as a
“Microcosm.”  

10	That implies that each Unit has always, as a potential, all the
qualities and faculties of the WHOLE.  

11	Any action or choice made by any Unit will automatically affect all
others. The sensitivity of the whole universe implies this. 

12	Karma is not to be looked on as a punitive agent, but as one which
readjusts disturbed harmony.

13	Harmony is disturbed by any individual choice that violates
brotherhood. 

14	Who, on knowing these factors, voluntarily decides to break the Laws
of universal harmony and brotherhood? The result of any such breach is that
Karma impersonally and exactly returns to the law-breaker the exact results
of the pain and sorrow he or she created. The victim is recompensed by
Karma. 

In seeking for a “law of forgiveness, what is envisaged as compensation for
the victims? Does the law-breaker do this? This is THEOSOPHY’S largest
objection to such a concept. How does the law-breaker learn?

Buddhism offers some of the simplest and grandest rules of conduct:


KARMA


If ye lay bound upon the wheel of change,
And no way were of breaking from the chain,
The Heart of boundless Being is a curse,
The Soul of Things fell Pain. 

Ye are not bound! the Soul of Things is sweet,
The Heart of Being is celestial rest;
Stronger than woe is will: that which was Good
Doth pass to Better -- Best.



FIVE RULES


Kill not -- for Pity's sake -- and lest ye slay
The meanest thing upon its upward way.

Give freely and receive, but take from none
By greed, or force or fraud, what is his own.

Bear not false witness, slander not, nor lie;
Truth is the speech of inward purity.

Shun drugs and drinks which work the wit abuse;
Clear minds, clean bodies, need no Soma juice.

Touch not thy neighbor's wife, neither commit
Sins of the flesh unlawful and unfit.
“Light of Asia” - Book 8, Sir Edwin Arnold

------------------------------------


Best wishes,

Dallas


============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven L
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:20 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: Y Factor cont'd II

Hello Zakk,

   I hope you don't mind if I interject a thing or two into your 
discussion on karma, the "Y" factor and forgiveness.


   Let me if I understand what you mean about the "Y" factor. It 
would seem, that you are calling it a kind of intervention, which by 
law, seems to be an involvement of a new factor in an individual's 
life. It is under law because it "fits" into the life of this 
individual as a perfectly mathematical cause whose timing is 
perfect. And it is non-linear, in the sense that it may not be 
traced in a linear fashion as cause to effect may be from 
one "direction", so to speak, so that its "history" might not be 
readily understood. Yet it would seem to be as belonging to this 
individual's life as all of the previous karma had been.
   If our lives are only very partially represented by the shape of 
our physical vestures and circumstances, so that our nature is 
better represented by a sphere of activity, which is only 
occasionally circumscribed by our karma into material envelopes, 
then it is easy to see how our karma must impinge upon us from 360 
degrees rather than from one line or another.
   And, since the brain we have at a given time, along with what 
intuition and minor clairvoyances, audiences, etc, are the best our 
karma can do, seemingly random causes may appear, to us, to come out 
of nowhere on occasion. But, as I understand it, all of the karma 
which effects us is absolutely lawfully appropriate, no matter what 
we think. However, as you intimate, there are moments of choice, 
which offer us new paths, and even though they too are 100% due to 
previous choices of ours as well, they can make an incredible 
variation in our lives, were we to act upon them.
    What I have eliminated is the capacity for any "exterior" 
intervention on the part of another being (Mahatma or other wise) 
that equates with "grace" or some kind of forgiveness. Surely 
another being may realize our repentant attitude and forgive, but 
even then it is up to us "to go our way and sin no more". 
Thankfully, our wrongs have not been automatically expunged because 
of this being forgiving us. We will always be the power which 
applies the Paramitas to ourselves, once another has pointed the way 
or we have found it ourselves.
    My question is, why would anyone want or need to have another 
individual (Mahatma or otherwise) remove the load we ourselves have 
created? Where would be the growth in awareness and actual freedom, 
if it could simply be degreed by another being? Reincarnation being 
a fact, and as long as our hearts and minds remain unself-deceived, 
we shall surely free ourselves from our own burden. We need apply 
the Four Noble truths, the fourth being the Path of self salvation, 
but it must be done in the interest of laying down an unself 
conscious example for others. That is what all of the Great beings-
Mahatmas and their representatives in the world have taught, in one 
way or another.

Steve

--- In theosophia@yahoogroups.com, "Zakk Duffany" <zakkduffany@e...> 
wrote:
> Dallas,
> 
> Thank you for your patience in allowing me to express a line of 
thinking in which I will be able to
> answer the questions you posed to me. 
>   I had referenced "Linear Law of Karma". You asked for a defining 
and said that "Karma is neither
> linear nor circular or globular -- it is universal as every choice 
made by any being effects all
> others to some extent."
>   I had referenced a Bible source in which Jesus was to have 
said "Your sins are forgiven". You 
> asked "What did he mean?" and "When did he say those things?" 
Another question posed was
> "Under what LAW of the Universe can prayer cause a result?"
>   The following can offer explanations to the questions posed :
> 
> Quote from Collective Writings Volume VII :
> 
> ------
> * The reader must bear in mind that the esoteric teaching 
maintains that save in cases of wickedness when 
> man's nature attains the acme of Evil, and human terrestrial sin 
reaches Satanic universal character, so to say, 
> as some Sorcerers do-there is no punishment for the majority of 
mankind after death. The law of retribution 
> as Karma, waits man at the threshold of his new incarnation. 
> 
> Quote from Key To Theosophy :
> 
> "ENQUIRER. But what is Karma? 
> THEOSOPHIST. As I have said, we consider it as the Ultimate Law of 
the Universe, the source, origin and 
> fount of all other laws which exist throughout Nature. Karma is 
the unerring law which adjusts effect to cause, 
> on the physical, mental and spiritual planes of being."
> 
> 
> Quote from SD I - STANZA III :  
> 
>   "DARKNESS RADIATES LIGHT, AND LIGHT DROPS ONE SOLITARY RAY INTO 
THE WATERS, 
> INTO THE MOTHER DEEP. THE RAY SHOOTS  THROUGH THE VIRGIN-EGG; THE 
RAY CAUSES 
> THE ETERNAL EGG TO THRILL, AND DROP THE NON-ETERNAL (periodical) 
GERM, WHICH 
> CONDENSES INTO THE WORLD EGG "
> 
> Explanation of posed question referring to Linear Karma :
> 
> Involution of Karma : Karma "is". In the stanza III from SD I, it 
is seen that there is "causation" and "effect". 
> There is no Law of Merit or Demerit. But there is karma. There is 
causation and effect. Karma, at this point, 
> has not experienced the Involution process to the state of 
separateness called physical or Linear reality. The Law 
> of Karma, at the point referred to in stanza III, is a "higher" 
or "greater" Law of Karma than the one that will 
> stem from it (involuted) such  as the one mentioned (Merit and 
Demerit). Also mentioned as a Law of Karma in 
> the physical (linear) is the Distributive Law of Karma. Although 
karma is in existence in stanza III, the Law of 
> Merit  and Demerit & the Distributive are non-existent. That which 
is prior to the Linear is Non-Linear. Linear 
> Laws of Karma exist in the Linear state. That is what defines it. 
As written in Collective Writings Volume VII, 
> the Law of Retribution waits man at the threshold of his new 
incarnation, at the threshold of the Linear. 
> The various Linear Laws of Karma are created from the Involution 
process of the One Law of Karma. The 
> One Law of Karma is of an Absolute nature. It is the germ which 
springs forth the creation of various Laws of 
> Karma during the Involution Processes. As stated in the Key To 
Theosophy, Karma exists on the physical (Linear),
>  mental (Non-Linear), and Spiritual (Non-Linear) planes of being. 
The understanding of Man and his Whole Self 
> comes from the understanding of the Involution Process related to 
Man. The same applies to Karma. To understand 
> Karma more fully, one must understand it's Involution Process. 
Differentiating Linear Karma and Non-Linear 
> Karma assists in the understanding of Karma and it's Involution 
Process. It places the perspective Laws of Karma 
> at their respective points and application. 
> 
> 
> Quote from Letters from the Masters of Wisdom (First series) 
Letter Two
> 
> May no further karma attach to those who have sinned last year in 
thought as well as in deed. Personally they 
> are forgiven. Let a new year and new hopes begin for them.
> 
> K.H.
> 
> Explanation of posed question referring to Law of Forgiveness :
> 
> The Law of Forgiveness is a Non-Linear Law of Karma. It is Non-
Linear because it is not "restricted" to or 
> only "existent" in the Linear state. As in regards to the higher 
self overshadows the lower self, so does the higher 
> karma overshadow the lower. That which is higher, is more 
encompassing than that which is lower. That which is 
> higher is in a less "involuted" state. It is a reason why the 
higher can "supersede" the lower. It is a higher "authority" 
> (authority is used to represent a concept vs. a technical 
definition). The Law of Forgiveness works on the basis 
> of causation and effect. The Law of Forgiveness has it's own 
classifications. The is a Personal Law of Forgiveness 
> and a Universal Law of Forgiveness. The Personal Law of 
Forgiveness is in regards to one's karma not being 
> intertwined with another's in a certain aspect. I believe your 
posed question was in regards to Universal Law of 
> Karma, so I will not expound on the Personal. In the last 
correspondence, I gave a scenario of a man and his theft. 
> A contriteness of heart for the deed was experienced. This 
resulted in a "change of  Being". The man was no 
> longer a thief and would not steal again. The "change of Being" 
created a new Path that could be taken. This is a 
> component of the Y Factor. Karma is integrated with it and 
operates in conjunction with it. The "choice" taken to 
> change created a Path in which lies a different Karma than the 
other he was previously on. "Forgiveness" lies on 
> this new Path. It is the changing of Karma he would have 
experienced if the man did not change his being. 
> To place this in relation to the Y Factor. The contriteness of 
heart created the opportunity to change. A "Y" was 
> before him to choose from. The left variant consisting of Karma's 
Law of Forgiveness, the right variant consisting
>  of Karma's Law of Retribution. If the man chooses the left 
variant of changing his being, forgiveness will be 
> experienced. If the man chooses the right variant, and not change, 
then  Karma's Law of Retribution will lie on 
> his path. Note that it is only the True changing of one's being 
from a "lower state"  (moral or otherwise) to a 
> "higher state" that can initiate this particular Y Factor to come 
into existence. Also note that because one chooses 
> to change their being does not necessitate that the Path of the 
Law of Forgiveness means one will not 
> experience a form of "Demerit". It may be decreased in intensity. 
It may not be experienced at all. It depends on 
> what lies on the Path of the Law of Forgiveness. This defers with 
individuals and circumstance. The causation
>  of change was Non-Linear. Its effects can be Non-Linear or 
Linear. Or both. Linear Causations have 
> only Linear Effects. 
> 
> Personal comments : K.H. did not state that he Personally Forgave 
for no reason. Forgiveness exists and is 
> part of the operations of Karma. 
> 
> Intervention of Masters : It is said that Masters' have the 
ability to change one's karma, but do not do so as it is
> an interference of karma. There is an aspect of "karma 
intervention" that can be seen through the understanding 
> of the Y Factor. A scenario can be taken from the new testament. 
This is used for the purpose of replying to the
> posed question of what did Jesus mean when he said (according to 
the Bible) "Your sins are forgiven".
> 
>  Given scenario : There are two lepers. The leprosy being 
experienced is a result of Karma, the Law of Merit and
> Demerit. Jesus healed both lepers. Upon healing them, he said to 
them both that their sins are forgiven and do not
> be sinful anymore. One of the lepers stayed cured while the other 
had leprosy return. 
>  Explanation of events through the Y Factor : When Jesus healed 
the physical attributes of leprosy, and opportunity
> was given to the two lepers. A "Y" was created. Now one could 
choose the Path of the Karma Law of Forgiveness 
> by choosing to change one's being, or continue being as one was 
and stay on the Path of the Law of Merit and 
> Demerit. One chose to change and experience the Path of Karma on 
the "left variant", the other chose the "right"
> variant. The right variant held the experience of leprosy in it's 
karma , so it returned. 
>  The intervention by a Master is the creating of a Y Factor. It is 
the opportunity to change a current Path. The choice
> is always the individual's. A Master does not "force" a karma or a 
change of karma. But he can present an opportunity
> for it to change it's present course or path. An individual has 
Free Will. This is not imposed upon. 
> 
> The Y Factor is not only an aspect of Free Choice / Will,  but an 
aspect of Karma as well. 
> 
> 
> 
>  I hope I have given the answers to your posed questions in a 
proper manner which is understandable from the 
> viewpoint I was presenting.
> 
> Thoughts on the posed question "Under what LAW of the Universe can 
prayer cause a result?
> 
> The definition of prayer is a foundation to answering the 
question. My definition is the communing with one's
> "Godself". This can be done through thought or even an emotion. If 
you perceive communing with one's "Godself" 
> as an act without possible result and no LAW can be applicable, 
then I will expound on it. I would ask that you
> would first tell me that you have no understanding in this area, 
or that you are interested in a perspective I may
> present. Otherwise, it would seem to me that this question is 
fairly self explanatory. I will say that I am somewhat
> baffled as to it's askance. Perhaps it is the definition of the 
term prayer. A difference in definition would put 
> clarity on the matter.



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