Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00501)

Sept 18 20004

Thanks Jerry,

Notes below,


Dallas

============================

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald S
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 7:59 PM
To:
Subject: RE: : Some Random Remarks


GS	Just some comments:

<< B M	you seem to equate theosophy and the study of theosophy with
reading books and comparing and contrasting later material with Blavatsky,
Judge, and Mahatma "original programme" material.>>
<< DTB	That is what is available as the most recent "message."
It has been attested to, and discussed by a number of thoughtful persons.
>>

GS	What about personal experience through meditation? What about
visiting the
planes and globes that Blavatsky talks about and making our own
observations?

============================================================

DTB	THEOSOPHY does not advise adventures and "travel" in the astral
reigns.

Reason? Danger if one is not already an Adept able to protect ones' self
from adverse elements there. [More information in detail is available on
request.]


The Bible has been "attested to, and discussed by a number of thoughtful
persons" so why aren't we all Christians? Same with the Quran, etc. This is
not a good argument for our side, Dal, and it won't win us any converts.

-- Can one be "converted" to

Question: is this correct?

=======================================

DTB	I'm not interested in any "converts."

I am interested in presenting THEOSOPHY, its views of the Universe and the
logic that underlies all aspect of life. It is sufficient to allow others
to read and thin over what is offered

As to Bible, Dhammapada, BHAGAVAD GITA, Vedas, Tao-The-King, or Quran If
they contain something that relates to the fundamentals of our living
situation, purpose of existence and future goals, then good. But I adhere
to no particular set of words and "authoritative" phrases, I only seek to
grasp the ideas behind those.

Look at the history of religious "descent:" as we may trace and know it.

Oldest Vedas -- then Hindu reforms, Brahma Sutras, Shad Darshanas (5 6
Schools), Upanishads, {and a huge mass of literature in Sanskrit on all
possible subjects, most of it still 'secret'} etc...,

then Buddhist reform of Hinduism [aimed to remove Brahmanical tyranny and
black magic practises],

then Zoroastrianism [a group which escaped from the tyranny of the Brahmins
and took refuge in Iran],

Tao-Te-King and Analects of Confucius [ Buddha, Lao-Tse, Pythagoras and
Zoroaster were contemporaries],

then Judaism [led by "A-Braham" --escaped form India -- emigrations began
around 7,000 years ago],

Christianity [fabricated by Paul and Eusebius], and

Islam [a Semitic reform of the Arabs].

Each was derived from the earlier one, and all contain the same general
teachings -- easy to compare, DTB

================================================


<< It is important to define to ourselves what THEOSOPHY is.>>

GS	Good point.


DTB<< In this there will be 2 categories:

1	The fundamentals of THEOSOPHY

2	Opinions about THEOSOPHY and what it may be. >>


GS	Those "fundamentals" ARE opinions my friend. Blavatsky's writings
are
nothing but opinions.

The idea that Theosophy is true is, in fact, an opinion and one that most of
the world's population do not share.

Now, I happen to share that opinion myself, but its still an opinion.

We Theosophists need to be honest with ourselves.

=====================================================

DTB	By all means. What may be no proof or have no validity for you may
be otherwise with others.

In THEOSOPHY (my understanding) there is always an attempt to find out
universal facts, and verify them.

1	Is the Universe a whole unit?

2	What are its limits, qualities, purpose, and

3	Why are we involved in it?

How do you separate "opinions" from "facts? Or, are there no facts ever?

If one desires to examine and measure movement one needs fixed reference
points in time and space -- where in our Universe and ourselves are such
"fixed" points?

If you say all is Maya. Then are there in that Maya any points that are
less mayavic than others? How are differences to be grasped and
understood?
Please see quotes below on this
===============================================


DTB<< If we are well founded in the fundamentals of THEOSOPHY, then we need
only check
those conclusions with what has already been reasoned out. If it
disagrees, then
a revision of one's own work is needed. >>

GS	OK, but what about all the stuff that does not disagree but is not
directly
confirmed either. There is a wide range of data that you have no way to
know if it is valid or not. The only way out of this is direct experience
through meditation. The common methodology of simply ignoring it is not
working.

========================================

DTB	I don't understand what you are driving at.

I do agree that "direct experience through meditation" is a process whereby
individuals satisfy themselves of the validity of propositions set up for
consideration.

The results thereof are usually incommunicable physically as a form
"tangible proof." There remain only "testimony" and a sequence of logical
proposition for other to consider, as it mathematics, or the science of
symbology -- which is a common means of transmitting fundamental ideas down
the ages.
[There is an example of this in the S D, Vol I p. 5...]

===========================================


<< BM	Further you comment that, " The ability to think things through
depends largely on the extent of one's study." Can you expand upon this
thought? >>

GS	It is "thinking things through" that keeps us chained by our own
karma and ignorance. Let the thinking go, let concepts go, see what is right
in front of you, currently obscured by those very thoughts and concepts.

========================================

DTB	There I disagree. One of the first practises in THEOSOPHY
recommended is at all times firm control of one's mind and thinking -- even
in meditation. On trial this works and is far more secure than seemingly
(from what you describe) uncontrolled an unsupervised ???

==========================================


<< BM Can one be in touch with the Higher Self, without having read a
theosophy book? Once the link with the Higher Self is established, does
one strengthen that link by reading books? >>

GS	Yes and yes.


DTB<< In this process we realize that WE (our true immovable and antique
SELF) are an impartial or a remote observer of our own mental processes,
and we value them as disinterestedly or as interestedly as we are inclined
>>

GS	The appearance of a self "remotely" observing something other than
itself, including even "our own mental processes" is exactly the definition
of Maya.

And it is impossible for the self to observe itself because there is no such
thing to observe.

Anyone who sits quietly and tries to observe their "self" will discover this
profound fact of nature.

You will find that you can observe thoughts, concepts, emotions, feelings,
ideas, images, sounds, your body parts, and so on (ie., the skandhas), but
nowhere is there a "self" that can be observed.

It can be inferred but never directly observed. And manas does so infer its
existence, but this inference is an imputation or superimposition because
there is no self..

===========================================

DTB	now I am lost. I know for a fact that there is in me a "Higher
Self." It is wise and honest and true. But I also know that when awake and
active in daily life I employ as an agent the brain-mind (or Lower Manas).
This has a tendency to wander (as Patanjali puts it in his great treatise) .


So it is observed, and in the course of time it (the Lower Mind) becomes
aware of this and does not resent it because there is no imposition or
coercion of any kind. One might call it a benevolent association. In fact
one of the effects of this association is for the Lower Mind to adopt some
of the characteristics of the Higher Mind. To that extent it becomes "wise.
"

I don't know how else to express this but, perhaps you may get my gist.

Best wishes,

Dallas

-------------------------------------- Now let me ask some more:


PS I am quite sure that "I" am anything but a "Maya." And I would hesitate
in trying to apply such a designation to anything or anyone.

Consider this:

Can we find the inner element (focus or center ?) that is "My Self?"

It certainly is not physical.

Now let me jump to another area. An analogy but related in my mind ---

The "atom" (or Jiva) is certainly not "physical" and is defined (in today's
world) in terms of energies, force fields, movement, components, and
what-not. Science decided to call it perpetual motion, but cannot find the
cause of that, or the moment of "first motion." Billions are spent on
bevatrons, cyclotrons, etc -- to try to unlock the mysteries of force and
energy -- so we may become masters of -- what ? The tiny intangible "atom"
-- Why?

It deals with this intangible and tries to make tangible definitions. --
Same with our "mind" dealing with physical things.

How does "Our Mind" become attached to this particular "body" we live in ?

Why this attachment?

How does individual and personal Karma attach itself to the thoughts,
feeling and act of this physical mass of stuff (body) we can't govern very
well.

And concerning most of its 'esoteric' actions (I mean digestion,
self-repair, circulation, gas-exchange, nutrition, scavenging, etc... ) we
know virtually nothing.

We desire, we think, and the body gets used. How are our volitions
connected to brain, nerves, and finally to our muscles?

All sounding very vague -- but those designations do not affect in the
least its reality (The INNER SELF) or its (tangible / intangible) presence
as a necessary Unit of Being. Then, out of which (along with its brother
immortals) the whole magnificent "mayavic" Universe if formed -- and as it
moves, so does the universe. Now what are those laws of motion, time and
space? And how does the intangible but real, become the tangible and
evanescent "present?" Maya -- to -- maya ?

Sounds very slippery to me.

Dal
====================================

Jerry S.

========================================== also see this please ---



---QUOTES FROM THE SECRET DOCTRINE

SPACE and its COMPONENTS


“The Occult Catechism contains the following questions and answers:


"What is it that ever is?" "Space, the eternal Anupadaka."*

"What is it that ever was?" "The Germ in the Root."

"What is it that is ever coming and going?" "The Great Breath."

"Then, there are three Eternals?" "No, the three are one. That which ever
is, is one, that which ever was is one, that which is ever being and
becoming is also one: and this is Space."

"Explain, oh Lanoo (disciple)." - "The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with
no circumference, for it is nowhere and everywhere; the One is the boundless
plane of the Circle, manifesting a diameter only during the manvantaric
periods; the One is the indivisible point found nowhere, perceived
everywhere during those periods; it is the Vertical and the Horizontal, the
Father and the Mother, the summit and base of the Father, the two
extremities of the Mother, reaching in reality nowhere, for the One is the
Ring as also the rings that are within that Ring.

Light in darkness and darkness in light: the 'Breath which is eternal.'

It proceeds from without inwardly, when it is everywhere, and from within
outwardly, when it is nowhere - (i.e., maya,† one of the centres ‡ ).

It expands and contracts (exhalation and inhalation). When it expands the
mother diffuses and scatters; when it contracts, the mother draws back and
ingathers.

This produces the periods of Evolution and Dissolution, Manwantara and
Pralaya. The Germ is invisible and fiery; the Root (the plane of the circle)
is cool; but during Evolution and Manwantara her garment is cold and
radiant.

Hot Breath is the Father who devours the progeny of the many-faced Element
(heterogeneous); and leaves the single-faced ones (homogeneous).

Cool Breath is the Mother, who conceives, forms, brings forth, and receives
them back into her bosom, to reform them at the Dawn (of the Day of Brahma,
or Manvantara).... "
S D I 11-12



----------------------------------

UNIVERSAL SPIRIT / SOUL


” In the Catechism, the Master is made to ask the pupil: -


"Lift thy head, oh Lanoo; dost thou see one, or countless lights above thee,
burning in the dark midnight sky?"

"I sense one Flame, oh Gurudeva, I see countless undetached sparks shining
in it."

"Thou sayest well. And now look around and into thyself. That light which
burns inside thee, dost thou feel it different in anywise from the light
that shines in thy Brother-men?"

"It is in no way different, though the prisoner is held in bondage by Karma,
and though its outer garments delude the ignorant into saying, 'Thy Soul and
My Soul.' "

The radical unity of the ultimate essence of each constituent part of
compounds in Nature - from Star to mineral Atom, from the highest Dhyan
Chohan to the smallest infusoria, in the fullest acceptation of the term,
and whether applied to the spiritual, intellectual, or physical worlds -
this is the one fundamental law in Occult Science. "The Deity is boundless
and infinite expansion," says an Occult axiom; and hence, as remarked, the
name of Brahma.”
S D I 12O

--------------------------------


UNIVERSE and MAN -- NIRMANAKAYAS


[from: VISISHTADWAITA CATECHISM ]

“After reaching Moksha (a state of bliss meaning "release from Bandha" or
bondage), bliss is enjoyed by it in a place called PARAMAPADHA, which place
is not material, but made of Suddasatwa (the essence, of which the body of
Iswara - "the Lord" - is formed).

There, Muktas or Jivatmas (Monads) who have attained Moksha, are never again
subject to the qualities of either matter or Karma. "But if they choose, for
the sake of doing good to the world, they may incarnate on Earth."*

The way to Paramapadha, or the immaterial worlds, from this world, is called
Devayana. When a person has attained Moksha and the body dies: -

"The Jiva (Soul) goes with Sukshma Sarira† from the heart of the body, to
the Brahmarandra in the crown of the head, traversing Sushumna, a nerve
connecting the heart with the Brahmarandra. The Jiva breaks through the
Brahmarandra and goes to the region of the Sun (Suryamandala) through the
solar Rays. Then it goes, through a dark spot in the Sun, to Paramapadha.
The Jiva is directed on its way by the Supreme Wisdom acquired by Yoga.‡
The Jiva thus proceeds to Paramapadha by the aid of Athivahikas (bearers in
transit), known by the names of Archi-Ahas . . . Aditya, Prajapati, etc. The
Archis here mentioned are certain pure Souls, etc., etc."
(VISISHTADWAITA CATECHISM, by Pundit Bhashyacharya, F.T.S.)
S D I 132-3

----------------------------Footnotes------------------------------

* These voluntary re-incarnations are referred to in our Doctrine as
Nirmanakayas (the surviving spiritual principles of men).

† Sukshma-sarira, "dream-like" illusive body, with which are clothed the
inferior Dhyanis of the celestial Hierarchy.

‡ Compare this esoteric tenet with the Gnostic doctrine found in
"Pistis-Sophia" (Knowledge = Wisdom), in which treatise Sophia Achamoth is
shown lost in the waters of Chaos (matter), on her way to Supreme Light, and
Christos delivering and helping her on the right Path. Note well, "Christos"
with the Gnostics meant the impersonal principal, the Atman of the Universe,
and the Atma within every man's soul - not Jesus; though in the old Coptic
MSS. in the British Museum "Christos" is almost constantly replaced by
"Jesus."


==================================================



BEGINNING


"Glory to the unchangeable, holy, eternal Supreme Vishnu, of one universal
nature, the mighty over all; to him who is Hiranyagarbha, Hari, and Sankara
(Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva), the creator, the preserver, and the destroyer of
the world; to Vasudeva, the liberator (of his worshippers); to him whose
essence is both single and manifold; who is both subtile and corporeal,
indiscreet and discreet; to Vishnu the cause of final emancipation, the
cause of the creation, existence, the end of the world; who is the root of
the world, and who consists of the world." (Vish. Purana, Book L.)

This is a grand invocation, full of philosophical meaning underlying it;
but, for the profane masses, as suggestive as is the first of an
anthropomorphic Being. We must respect the feeling that dictated both; but
we cannot help finding it in full disharmony with its inner meaning, even
with that which is found in the same Hermetic treatise where it is said:

"Reality is not upon the earth, my son, and it cannot be thereon. . . .
Nothing on earth is real, there are only appearances. . . He (man) is not
real, my son, as man. The real consists solely in itself and remains what it
is. . . Man is transient, therefore he is not real, he is but appearance,
and appearance is the supreme illusion.

Tatios: Then the celestial bodies themselves are not real, my father, since
they also vary?

Trismegistos: That which is subject to birth and to change is not real. . .
There is in them a certain falsity, seeing that they too are variable...

Tatios: And what then is the primordial Reality?

Trismeg.: That which is one and alone, 0 Tatios; That which is not made of
matter, nor in any body. Which has neither colour nor form, which changes
not nor is transmitted but which always is."

This is quite consistent with the Vedantic teaching. The leading thought is
Occult; and many are the passages in the Hermetic Fragments that belong
bodily to the Secret Doctrine.

The latter teaches that the whole universe is ruled by intelligent and
semi-intelligent Forces and Powers, as stated from the very beginning.”
S D I 287

=================================================


SPACE - Monads - LIFE UNIVERSAL - ABSOLUTE


“Extracts From A Private Commentary, * hitherto secret:―


(xvii.) "The Initial Existence in the first twilight of the Maha-Manwantara
(after the MAHA-PRALAYA that follows every age of Brahma) is a CONSCIOUS
SPIRITUAL QUALITY. In the manifested WORLDS (solar systems) it is, in its
OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVITY, like the film from a Divine Breath to the gaze of
the entranced seer. It spreads as it issues from LAYA † throughout infinity
as a colourless spiritual fluid. It is on the SEVENTH PLANE, and in its
SEVENTH STATE in our planetary world. ‡

(xviii.) "It is Substance to OUR spiritual sight. It cannot be called so by
men in their WAKING STATE; therefore they have named it in their ignorance
'God-Spirit.'

(xix.) "It exists everywhere and forms the first UPADHI (foundation) on
which our World (solar system) is built. Outside the latter it is to be
found in its pristine purity only between (the solar systems or) the Stars
of the Universe, the worlds already formed or forming; those in LAYA resting
meanwhile in its bosom. As its substance is of a different kind from that
known on earth, the inhabitants of the latter, seeing THROUGH IT, believe in
their illusion and ignorance that it is empty space. There is not one
finger's breath (ANGULA) of void Space in the whole Boundless
(Universe)......... (p. 289)

(xx.) "Matter or Substance is septenary within our World, as it is so beyond
it. Moreover, each of its states or principles is graduated into seven
degrees of density. SURYA (the Sun), in its visible reflection, exhibits the
first, or lowest state of the seventh, the highest state of the Universal
PRESENCE, the pure of the pure, the first manifested Breath of the ever
Unmanifested SAT (Be-ness). All the Central physical or objective Suns are
in their substance the lowest state of the first Principle of the BREATH.
Nor are any of these any more than the REFLECTIONS of their PRIMARIES which
are concealed from the gaze of all but the Dhyan Chohans, whose Corporeal
substance belongs to the fifth division of the seventh Principle of the
Mother substance, and is, therefore, four degrees higher than the solar
reflected substance. As there are seven Dhatu (principal substances in the
human body) so there are seven Forces in Man and in all Nature.

----------------------------Footnotes---------------------------------------


* This (teaching) does not refer to Prakriti-Purusha beyond the boundaries
of our small universe.

† The ultimate quiescent state: the Nirvana condition of the seventh
Principle.

‡ The teaching is all given from our plane of consciousness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



(xxi.) "The real substance of the concealed (Sun) is a nucleus of Mother
substance.* It is the heart and the matrix of all the living and existing
Forces in our solar universe. It is the Kernel from which proceed to spread
on their cyclic journeys all the Powers that set in action the atoms in
their functional duties, and the focus within which they again meet in their
SEVENTH ESSENCE every eleventh year. He who tells thee he has seen the sun,
laugh at him † as if he had said that the sun moves really onward on his
diurnal path . . . .


(xxiii). "It is on account of his septenary nature that the Sun is spoken of
by the ancients as one who is driven by seven horses equal to the metres of
the Vedas; or, again, that, though he is identified with the SEVEN "Gaina"
(classes of being) in his orb, he is distinct from them, ‡ as he is,
indeed; as also that he has SEVEN RAYS, as indeed he has . . . .


(xxv.) "The Seven Beings in the Sun are the Seven Holy Ones, Self-born from
the inherent power in the matrix of Mother substance. It is they who send
the Seven Principal Forces, called rays, which at the beginning of Pralaya
will centre into seven new Suns for the next Manvantara. The energy from
which they spring into conscious existence in every Sun, is what some people
call Vishnu (see foot-note below), which is the Breath of the ABSOLUTENESS.

We call it the One manifested life-itself a reflection of the
Absolute.........


(xxvi.) "The latter must never be mentioned in words or speech LEST IT
SHOULD TAKE AWAY SOME OF OUR SPIRITUAL ENERGIES THAT ASPIRE towards ITS
state, gravitating ever onward unto IT spiritually, as the whole physical
universe gravitates towards ITS manifested centre-cosmically.


(xxvii.) "The former-the Initial existence-which may be called while in this
state of being the ONE LIFE, is, as explained, a FILM for creative or
formative Purposes. It manifests in seven states, which, with their
septenary sub-divisions, are the FORTY-NINE Fires* mentioned in sacred books
. . . . . .


---------------------------Footnotes--------------------------------


* Or the "dream of Science," the primeval really homogeneous matter, which
no mortal can make objective in this Race or Round either.

† "Vishnu in the form of the Solar active energy, neither ever rises nor
sets, and is at once, the sevenfold Sun and distinct from it," says Vishnu
Purana (Book II., Chap. 1 1).

‡ "In the same manner as a man approaches a mirror placed upon a stand,
beholds in it his own image, so the energy or reflection of Vishnu (the Sun)
is never disjoined but remains in the Sun as in a mirror that is there
stationed" ("Vishnu Purana").
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----


(xxix.) "The first is the . . . . 'Mother' (prima MATERIA). Separating
itself into its primary seven states, it proceeds down cyclically; when †
having consolidated itself in its LAST principle as GROSS MATTER, it
revolves around itself and informs, with the seventh emanation of the last,
the first and the lowest element (the Serpent biting its own tail). In a
hierarchy, or order of being, the seventh emanation of her last principle
is:-

(a) In the mineral, the spark that lies latent in it, and is called to its
evanescent being by the POSITIVE awakening the NEGATIVE (and so forth) . . .
.

(b) In the plant it is that vital and intelligent Force which informs the
seed and develops it into the blade of grass, or the root and sapling. It is
the germ which becomes the UPADHI of the seven principles of the thing it
resides in, shooting them out as the latter grows and develops.

(c) In every animal it does the same. It is its life principle and vital
power; its instinct and qualities; its characteristics and special
idiosyncrasies . . . .

(d) To man, it gives all that it bestows on all the rest of the manifested
units in nature; but develops, furthermore, the reflection of all its
FORTY-NINE FIRES in him. Each of his seven principles is an heir in full to,
and a partaker of, the seven principles of the "great Mother." The breath of
her first principle is his spirit (Atma). Her second principle is BUDDHI
(soul). We call it, erroneously, the seventh. The third furnishes him with
(a) the brain stuff on the physical plane, and (b) with the MIND that moves
it [which is the human soul.-H. P. B.]-according to his organic capacities.

(e) It is the guiding Force in the Cosmic and terrestrial elements. It
resides in the Fire provoked out of its latent into active being; for the
whole of the seven subdivisions of the * * * principle reside in the
terrestrial Fire. It whirls in the breeze, blows with the hurricane, and
sets the air in motion, which element participates in one of its principles
also. Proceeding cyclically, it regulates the motion of the water, attracts
and repels the waves* according to fixed laws of which its seventh principle
is the informing soul.

-------------------------------Footnotes-------------------------------

* In "Vishnu" and other Puranas.

† See the Hermetic "Nature," "Going down cyclically into matter when she
meets 'heavenly man.' "
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---


(f) Its four higher principles contain the germ that develops into the
Cosmic Gods; its three lower ones breed the lives of the Elements
(Elementals).

(g) In our Solar world, the One Existence is Heaven and the Earth, the Root
and the flower, the Action and the Thought. It is in the Sun, and is as
present in the glow-worm. Not an atom can escape it. Therefore, the ancient
Sages have wisely called it the manifested God in Nature. . . ."
S D I 289 -292


==================================================


Well that is a lot D