Theos-Talk Archives (March 2004 Message tt00499)

Hallo all of you,

My views are:

Just to keep this thread on the right track, I will mention
my views on certain areas of importance to this talk we have.


1. Just to put Krishanmurti where he sort of belongs.
If one compares Krishnamurti with --- for instance --- Sai Baba in India.
I only withness a gnat compared to an elephant. (smile...)
Baba having done far more than Kishnamurti did in his entire life.
This is just an example.


2. So we have according to some of you, that Bailey copies CWL'sd and
Besant's early ES papers - from the years 1910-18.
And she publishes the book "Initiation - human and Solar", which are
supposed to be based - heavily - on these earliere ES papers.
CWL makes publishes in 1925 the book "The Masters and the path"
which has many similartites with the above Bailey book.
This last sentence we agree entirely upon.

The question and thought i have now is:

a)
- Was bailey wrong in doing so ?
Let us remember what views Bailey had about the ES and TS in her
autobiography.
I hold Bailey's reason for breaking with Adyar in high regard if what she
tells us is true.
I quote her autobiography to show her views:

" I remember at one of the first E.S. meetings I attended Miss Poutz, who
was the secretary of the E.S. at that time.,
made the astounding statement that no one in the world could be a disciple
of the Masters of the Wisdom unless they
had been so notified by Mrs. Besant. That remark broke a glamor in me,
although I did not speak of it at that time
except to Foster Bailey. I knew I was a disciple of the Master K.H. and had
been as long as I could remember.
Mrs. Besant had evidently overlooked me. I could not understand why the
Masters, Who were supposed to have a
universal consciousness, would only look for Their disciples in the ranks of
the T.S. I knew it could not be so. I knew
They could not be so limited in consciousness and later I met many people
who were disciples of the Masters and who
had never been in touch with the T.S. and had never even heard of it. Just
as I thought I had found a center of spiritual
light and understanding, I discovered I had wandered into another sect.
We discovered then that the E.S. completely dominated the T.S. Members were
good members if, and only if, they [159]
accepted the authority of the E.S. If they agreed with all the
pronouncements of the Outer Head and if they gave their loyalty
to the people that the heads of the E.S. in every country endorsed. Some of
their pronouncements seemed ridiculous. Many
of the people endorsed were mediocre to the nth degree. A number who were
looked up to as initiates were not particularly
intelligent or loving, and love and intelligence, in full measure, are the
hallmark of the initiate. Amongst the advanced membership
there was competition and claim making and, therefore, constant fighting
between personalities - fighting that was not confined
just to oral battles but which found its expression in magazine articles. I
shall never forget my horror one day when a man in
Los Angeles said to me, "If you want to know what brotherhood is not, go and
live at Krotona." He did not know I lived there."
http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/autobiography/auto1055.html

******

- I further think that the content of the Bailey book is quite harmless.
It is just Raja Yoga with a tinge of Christianity is it not.
If you think it not to be so or to be harmless, - then please more precisely
answer why not ?

- Did the mentioned early ES papers really come from - inspiration by -
the Master D.K. and no one knew about it ?



b) Jerry's quote given to us by Daniel in this thread was :
"From my earlier perusal of AAB's writings, I found
that many of her teachings were DRAWN DIRECTLY from
Besant and Leadbeater's E.S. writings...."

The word "many" is as far as i view it not covered with just one book -
out of a total of about 24 books - being taken out as a Copy-Cat.
So are there other books we should be concerned with ?
And if so, which ones ?

Daniel Caldwell ?
Jerry Hejka-Ekins ?



c) Would any of you show the readers at his place - Theos-Talk
any of these early ES papers you - Daniel or Jerry refers to
as having been copied by Bailey into her book "Initiation - Human and Solar"
?

Perhaps someone could scan them into a pc and post them on a website
or mail them to me in private ?
I find this issue to be very important while we deasl with the Bailey issue,
and the upcoming events on this planet.



As far as I am concerned it is not so that --- "Many" --- of Bailey's books
were "DRAWN DIRECTLY"
from E.S. papers written by Leadbeater or Besant between the years 1910-18.
If I am wrong - then proove me wrong !


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"...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at
their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and
hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision."
H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2


from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" <danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:09 PM
Subject: Theos-World Morten, please ask Jerry Hejka-Ekins


> Morten on "Many of Bailey's Teachings DRAWN DIRECTLY from Besant &
> Leadbeater"
>
> Morten,
>
> My quotes show that it was Jerry Hejka-Ekins who wrote:
>
> "From my earlier perusal of AAB's writings, I found
> that many of her teachings were DRAWN DIRECTLY from
> Besant and Leadbeater's E.S. writings...." caps added
>
> Jerry has posted some contributions of late on Theos-Talk.
> Hopefully Jerry will see your question and elucidate
> the point he made.
>
> But I would say that you could start with comparing
> Bailey's "Initiation Human and Solar" with Leadbeater's
> "The Masters and the Path."
>
> OBTW, you seem somewhat surprised by Jerry's statement.
> Why?
>
> Daniel
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@a...> wrote:
> > Hallo Daniel and all,
> >
> > What is this ?
> > How do you define the word "many"
> > when you say "Many of Bailey's Teachings DRAWN DIRECTLY from Besant
> &
> > Leadbeater" ???
> >
> > If this is true - dead-letter, then this is historical, and we
> aught to
> > spread the word to everyone.
> >
> > Please help me out Daniel.
> >
> >
> >
> > from
> > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" <danielhcaldwell@y...>
> > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 5:19 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World Many of Bailey's Teachings DRAWN DIRECTLY from
> Besant &
> > Leadbeater
> >
> >
> > On Theos-L in a posting dated Jan. 12, 1994, Jerry
> > Hejka-Ekins wrote:
> >
> > "From my earlier perusal of AAB's writings, I found
> > that many of her teachings were DRAWN DIRECTLY from
> > Besant and Leadbeater's E.S. writings, which to this day,
> > are not publicly available." Bold added.
> > Quoted from:
> > http://theosophy.net/tl-text/TL199401.TXT
> >
> > In another posting dated Jan 6, 2003 and posted to
> > Theos-Talk, Jerry added details:
> >
> > "The Maitreya teaching was originally tied to
> > Krishnamurti, the supposed vehicle for the
> > Maitreya/Christ return. Besant, in an ES talk in
> > 1909 or 10, presented the earliest (that I'm aware of)
> > full description of what LATER BECAME CREDITED as
> > the Bailey hierarchy-Maitreya and all."
> >
> > "This was published in The Link (a London ES journal)
> > and in the American EST Bulletin in 1910, I think,
> > but no later than this. Also in January 1912, CWL and
> > AB were called by the Maitreya to prepare Krishnamurti
> > and Jinarajadasa for their second initiation. . . .
> > Much of the material in Masters and the Path comes from
> > these early events. The account of this 1912 initiation
> > begins on pg. 298 in my 2nd edition (1927). . . ."
> >
> > "According to her Autobiography, (If my memory serves
> > me correctly) Bailey's first contact with Theosophy
> > was through the Pacific Grove Lodge around 1912.
> > She moved to Krotona Hollywood a year or two
> > thereafter where she joined the ES, and GAINED
> > ACCESS to the [Besant/Leadbeater] material concerning
> > the inner government and initiations, which was
> > only circulated through the ES at that time. . . ."
> >
> > ". . . [Bailey's] Initiation Human and Solar was published
> > in 1922-her first book-I think. I read it some years ago,
> > and found it VERY FAITHFUL to the [Besant/Leadbeater]ES
> > teachings as they were presented from 1910-1918." Bold added.
> > Quoted from:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/10242
> >
> > For information on the deviations in the teachings of Besant
> > and Leadbeater from H.P. Blavatsky's original presentation
> > of Theosophy, see the following:
> >
> > . C.W. Leadbeater's and Annie Besant's Theosophical Teachings:
> > Comments by James A. Santucci, Jerry Hejka-Ekins and Alvin Boyd Kuhn
> > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm#online
> > http://www.theosophy.info/thomas/index.htm#online
> >
> > . H.P. Blavatsky: A Great Betrayal by Alice Leighton Cleather.
> > 1922. 106 pp.
> > http://kessingerpub.com/searchresults_orderthebook.lasso?
> > Title=12585457&Submit=Query
> >
> > . Theosophy Versus Neo-Theosophy (abridged edition, reprint of
> > Section I only) compiled by Margaret Thomas with additions by Mark
> > Jaqua.
> > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm
> > http://www.theosophy.info/thomas/index.htm
> >
> > . Theosophy Or NeoTheosophy? (reprint of the complete,
> > unabridged
> > original edition) compiled by Margaret Thomas
> > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/tontitlepage.pdf
> > http://www.theosophy.info/tontitlepage.pdf
> >
> > . Life After Death in Kamaloka (the Astral World): H.P.
> > Blavatsky
> > versus C.W. Leadbeater compiled by Ray Morgan
> > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm
> > http://www.theosophy.info/morganafterdeath.htm
> >
> > . C.W. Leadbeater & H.P. Blavatsky about Life on Mars and Other
> > Planets
> > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/leadbeatermars.htm
> > http://www.theosophy.info/leadbeatermars.htm
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > Daniel H. Caldwell
> > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
> > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at
> > their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and
> > hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision."
> > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > You can always access our main site by
> > simply typing into the URL address
> > bar the following 6 characters:
> >
> > hpb.cc
> >
> > See also THEOSOPHY: FROM LONG-SEALED ANCIENT FOUNTAINS
> > http://www.theosophy.info/
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------