Theos-Talk Archives (August 2003 Message tt00046)

Idres Shah's "Way of the Sufi" is one of my absolute favorites, and I 
recognized the Sufi nature of your numbered statements almost 
immediately!

I agree with virtually everything that you said, and I'll address 
them by number.... 

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@a...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Joe and all of you,
> 
> I tend to agree with you in a certain sense...
> 
> Try the following interpretation on what Theosophy is and that some 
parts or
> Theosophical branches make certain faults because of ignorance...
> 
> *** Here is a little something ***
> 
> 
> "1. Truth has no form;

YET EXISTS NONETHELESS...AS IN THE INTRODUCTION OF THE SD (1ST 
FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITION)...UNTHINKABLE AND UNSPEAKABLE. BUT WHAT IS 
NOT SAID, IS ANYTHING ABOUT UNKNOWABLE...THAT'S A DIFFERENT MATTER. 
THE KNOWING IS BEYOND CULTURE AND EXPRESSION.
> 
> 2. The means through which people may perceive Truth have forms;

TRUE. 
> 
> 3. All forms are limited. Some of the limitations are time, place, 
culture,
> language;

AND CIRCUMSTANCE
> 
> 4. Different forms are not necessarily antagonistic, for the above 
reasons;

AGAIN, TRUE
> 
> 5. Forms have changed through the centuries in obedience to the 
external
> world to which all forms belong;

IT IS THE TRUTH BEHIND THE FORMS THAT IS IMPORTANT AND WHAT WE, AS 
THEOSOPHISTS TRY TO BRING TO THE TABLE.
> 
> 6. When people believe that form is more important than the Truth, 
they will
> not find truth, but will stay with form;

AGREED.
> 
> 7. Forms are vehicles and instruments, and vehicles and instruments 
cannot
> be called good or bad without context;

TIME, PLACE AND CIRCUMSTANCE...RE: LETTER #1 IN THE "MAHATMA LETTERS" 
BEING A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE.
> 
> 8. Forms outlive their usefulness, increase or diminish in 
usefulness;

YES, YET PEOPLE HAVE A TENDENCY TO MISTAKE THE FORM FOR THE REALITY. 
OUR CULTURE CALLS FOR ADOPTING NEW FORMS OF DISSEMINATING THEOSOPHY 
AND NEW MODES OF EXPLANATION, BUT NOT CHANGING THE ESSENTIAL TRUTHS. 
WE SHOULD, AS HPB WAS, BE ASTUTE STUDENTS OF THE CULTURE THAT WE LIVE 
IN SO THAT WE MAY COMMUNICATE OUR MESSAGE IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH 
THE HABITS AND UNDERSTANDINGS OF THOSE WHOM WE DEAL WITH. OTHERWISE, 
OUR MESSAGE BECOMES IRRELEVANT AND THE TRUTHS THAT WE SEEK TO 
COMMUNICATE WITHER ON THE VINE OF LOST MEANING BECAUSE THE MODE OF 
EXPRESSION IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THE TIME, PLACE AND CIRCUMSTANCE 
THAT WE ARE IN.
> 
> 9. These statements are abundantly to be found in the writings of
> theosophical teachers through the ages.

YES.
> 
> 
> *******
> 
> 
> There are four main factors which, when applied to human 
beings, "programme"
> them almost like machines. These are factors which are used in
> indoctrination and conditioning. By their use, deliberate or 
otherwise, the
> human mind is made more mechanical, and will tend to think along 
stereotyped
> lines...
> 
> They are: tension alternating with relaxation, sloganisation and 
repetition.
> 
> Becasue most human beings are trained to accept these factors as 
part of
> their "learning" process, almost everything which is presented to a 
human
> being to be learned is generally converted by him into material 
which he
> applies by these methods....
> 
> In the various groupings of people engaged in this kind of teaching 
whom i
> have contacted during the past few years, virtually none is free 
from this
> element or these factors. The result is that one set of slogans has 
been
> changed for another: and phrases like "man is asleep", words 
like "essence",
> certain exercises and techniques as well as literary material, have 
been
> studied so closely and dilligently that they have succeeded in the 
main only
> in indoctrination. Their instrumental effect is spent.
> 
> It is mainly for this reason that tradition repeatedly says that the
> formulation must change in accordance with the people, the place 
and the
> Work...
> (An addition: Let us think about that. Too old Theosophical bibles 
are not
> the idea. Blavatsky have also mentioned that view. I just ca'nt 
find the
> quote right now. Anyone ???)
> 
> ...if we retrace our position to the point just before the learning 
and
> teaching became 'established' as a conditioning in the mind of the
> individuals, we can reclaim the flexibility which the work 
demands...
> 
> People ordinarily do not reach deeply enough into themselves to 
find out how
> to learn about what Theosophists call Reality. They make premature
> assumptions about how to learn, and what attracts them must be 
good, and so
> on, which in the end defeats their putative purpose...
> 
> *******

IS THIS WHY MOST AMERICAN SUFIS HAPPEN TO BE PSYCHOLOGISTS?
> 
> 
> The repeated upsurge of apparently different schools of higher 
study in
> various epochs and cultures is due in large part to the need to 
rescue
> genuine traditional teachings from the automatism and
> social-psychological-entertainment functions which regularly and 
deeply
> invade and , for the most part, eventually possess them.
> (An addition: That is why the present - formulation of Theosophy is 
not good
> enough as it formulates it self today. I would suggest Comparative 
study as
> a solution, because I myself have'nt yet found any - single authored
> up-to-date - physical comprehensive teaching , which cover all the 
teaching,
> which are available to us today on this Planet. Some have read that
> Blavatsky promised that a expansion of the teaching would be made. 
But who
> is then the author ?)
> 
> Certain physical and mental exercises, as an example, are of 
extremely
> significant importance for the furthering of higher human 
functions. if
> these are practised by people who use things for emotional, social 
or
> callisthenic purposes, they will not operate on a higher level with 
such
> people. They become merely a means of getting rid of surplus 
energy, or of
> assuaging a sense of frustration. The practioners, however, 
regularly and
> almost invariably mistake their subjective experiences of them for
> "something higher".
> (An addition: Think about how we for instance email here at Theos-
talk. How
> often we email, why we do it, with what quality, and with what 
result
> etc...!?? )
> 
> It is for this reason that legitimate traditonal higher teachings 
are
> parsimonious with their materials and exercises...
> 
> Where there is ideology, conditioning and indoctrination, a 
mechanical
> element is introduced which drives out the factor of 
extradimensional
> reality perception which connects the higher functions of the mind 
with the
> higher reality.
> 
> Theosophical or spiritual experiences are designed to maintain a 
harmony
> with and nearness to this Reality, while mechanical systems 
effectively
> distance people from it..."
> 
> 
> A digested and rewritten verion taken
> from Learning How to Learn, by Idries Shah
> 
> (Idries Shah has been called an overlooked author by Sylvia 
Cranston. My
> view are the same.)
> 
> 
> from
> M. Sufilight
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Fulton" <jpfulton@y...>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Good topic!
> 
> 
> > I have to admit to feeling a strong sense of disconnect sometimes 
within
> the Theosophical movement. You have an organization that was 
founded by an
> absolutely fearless woman in the Victorian era in a world that was
> immeasurably more hostile to Eastern thought than we are today. 
HPB in
> "selling" Theosophy to the world was, quite frankly, only slightly 
less
> shameless in her approaches than Click and Clack, the Car Talk 
guys. She
> made alliances with people and groups that Theosophists today would 
shudder
> to think of. Some worked for a time then fell apart, some were 
complete
> disasters, but she did try. To her Universal Brotherhood was 
something to
> go for and to heck with the form and philosophical niceties. She 
made
> mistakes, we will too...but the important thing is to TRY!!!!
> >
> > This is a movement with a lot of really valuable things that need 
to be
> said and a lot to contribute to the world at large. We have a very
> knowledgeable, dedicated group of people in several organizations 
and some
> completely independent who are capable of creating a literal 
spiritual
> revolution around the world. The trick for the movement, 
internally seems
> to be to get out of the past and start looking towards the future, 
firmly
> rooted in the eternal.
> >
> > dalval14@e... wrote:
> > Aug 12 2003
> >
> > Dear Friends:
> >
> > No one need think themselves insular if they extend the wealth of
> > their knowledge to others. A little effort helps all.
> >
> > We are all student-teachers. If we offer help and companionship
> > we also receive it with the same gratitude.
> >
> > We are truth seekers, all. As such any help is welcome.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> > ==================
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Griffin Eddie [
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 3:45 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Good topic!
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I have also wondered at the insular nature of Theosphical groups.
> > Excellent comment.
> > This is certainly a fruitful topic. When open minded
> > Theosophists tackle such issues then positive change may be in
> > the wind..
> >
> > Your frustration shows that you care.
> >
> > -Ed Griffin
> >
> > P.S.
> >
> > I hope this opens up a good discussion. By sharing our
> > viewpoints maybe we can learn to spread Theosophical ideas in an
> > even more skillful manner.
> >
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:37:57 -0000
> > From: "jpfulton"
> > Subject: Re: Yours of Aug 6th 2003 -- Present and Future? What
> > will
> > it be ?
> >
> > Sorry for the mis-impression. Rather than interpreting your
> > remarks
> > as quietism, I found them very fascinating...and as always, on
> > the
> > mark. My comments were directed more towards what I see as a
> > tendency within the Theosophical movement that seemed to have its
> > start after the Krishnamurti debacle in 1927 (which may have
> > affected
> > the PL and ULT folk in ways that they maybe didn't realize at the
> > time). I have always been quite amazed at how we Theosophists
> > can
> > have all of the knowledge and wisdom that we do, but on the other
> > hand be so insular with it that the world at large barely knows
> > of
> > our existence...the result of either excessive caution or lack of
> > self-confidence, or loss of nerve on the part of the collective
> > Theosophical movement.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >