Theos-Talk Archives (November 2002 Message tt00531)

Nov 18 2002

Re: Race and Politics?

Dear Netemara:

The first object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to establish a nucleus
for a brotherhood of humanity. Is it not ?

How should Theosophists discuss "race" and "politics."

What can be used to unite, not divide ?

How can we speak casually of war and killing and making forcible
changes in other countries' governments? As an exaggerated example:
How would any one of us like a unit of policemen camped in our homes
to see we maintain the Law ? [ Do we have a right to be "crazy?"
When do our neighbours have a "right" to interfere ? What, then
become their responsibilities ? ]

Yes, there are objectionable "dictators." and they need to be
restrained, whether in Iraq or in Libya, or anywhere. But,
fundamentally it is up to the local people to effect changes, not
external might, which is also tainted with a greed for oil, etc...,
and for the power that it represents.

Any one with any discernment know that Iraq is unable to endure any
contest of might with the US, or the united UN. But, can any one
predict the future? We may secure a peace by force and removal of a
current trouble maker, but does that cure the disease ? What,
fundamentally is the disease ? Can it ever be forcefully eradicated,
and health forced in ? What will be the conditions 20, 50, 100 years
from now ?

Is it not strange that in a Theosophical chat-group (where brotherhood
is the basic criterion) we have discussions about "race" and
"politics?" What would be a Theosophical basis for consideration?

If we, each of us, are Immortal Souls, then our present incarnation is
only one of a great series, where we have lived in many "races" and
different "sexes," and have played with "politics" down the ages --
only we don't remember the details.

One thing is certain: our present inclination, and what we know in
our hearts, indicates WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED AND STORED in our
characters. We all know the difference between selfishness and
compassion.

Theosophy teaches compassion., not the divisions of hatred and
prejudice.

So why should we concern ourselves with the present day arguments
motivated by either greed or parochialism, and marked by an
indifference to human suffering, if it is sufficiently far away from
our doorstep and neighbourhood.

Do we think at all of the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere who are
affected by the armed incursions of various "peace-keeping" military
units and men?

How can one keep peace by armed might? Is that rue fundamental
justice ?

Dallas

-----Original Message-----
From: netemara888 [mailto:netemara888@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:38 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant
white as in 'wh...

To whomever is concerned about the race in HPB:

I heard this same stuff from another source and my response was that
blacks in America, anyway cannot speak for other folks: LOVE HPB and
AAB writings. I asked him where the heck do you think I first got the
books and the occult instruction from nearly 30 years ago? From other
African Americans who had the books and gave them to me and bade me
be a vegetarian (this was heavily influenced by Dick Gregory) and the
like. We KNOW what is in the books my friend, but that does not deter
US, period. I know what is in all the books they wrote, cause I read
them all, and that does not deter me. I cannot speak for Jewish
reaction, except that it is usually extremely negative. I think that
HPB did that ON purpose...IMO--and I have been reading this and grew
up on it ever since.

I think the anti-semitism and the rest are all in there for a reason,
as you point out, but that reason may not be the reason you think it
is in there for. Every thought about that? She is trying to shake up
people. Do you think she did not know that her works would be read on
into the next century? Of course she knew she predicted AAB's work
100 years after her own. The race stuff meaning skin color or IQ or
whatever is just what it sounds like RACISM 101!!!!! It is merely to
keep crackheads like yourself away from her books......just kidding.

Netemara

****************

-- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote:
> It seems that just about ALL (so far as i can tell) very
enlightened beings
> bring this(below) into the world.
> FIRE
> Some of us are warmed by this and some are BURNT.
> The sword that Jesus supposedly placed before all indicating that
he brought
> not PEACE (to the ho-hum participants of LIFE) but war.
> What kind of a war was he referring to , i wonder?
> BUT, as a master once stated, the student MUST feel everything ,
good , bad
> or indifferent , in its entirety.
> Oh woe, (1st chapter of the Bhagavad Gita , don't you
think?).Despondency
> must arise followed , maybe, by analysis of this woe and how to get
out of it.
> I suppose , in the interim struggle, we, as students must suffer or
enjoy all
> in the "interest" or LAW to exchange one "coin" for another. (The
coinage of
> the animal nature to the human nature and then to the Divine
Nature) This
> former paragraph was pointed out by a VERY wise yogin.
> This FIRE is very potent, one might think.
> And so it is.
> Our sufferings and enjoyments seem to point to this very FIRE,
don't you
> think.
> So, then , what happens next?
> A moonlit stillness? or frost ? can possibly enfold the student.
> How delicious, after that "roasting".
> Ahhhhhh.
> PAX and PREMA. Long may it dwell with us.
> ========================================================
>
> In a message dated 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> bhakti.eohn@v... writes:
>
> > Subj: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant
white as
> > in 'white' race. "
> > Date: 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time
> > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami)
> > Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:theos-talk@y...";>
> theos-talk@y...</A>
> > To: theos-talk@y...
> >
> > DEAR MR. CALDWELL,
> >
> > PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU...
> >
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...>
wrote:
> > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes:
> >
> > > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white'
race.
> >
> > HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME
INTERPRETED
> > BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE'
AS
> > IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE
TARA'.
> >
> > I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE DARK
> > RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS
> > EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS.
> >
> > HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY OF
> > WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY
> > CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE
> > CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED
ANTI-
> > RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY
IMPRESSIVE
> > ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN
FACT, IN
> > ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT RACIST
> > ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL
POST
> > THAT NOTE HERE.
> >
> > HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL
WRITINGS
> > MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS
FROM A
> > WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST
AND
> > ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT
IS
> > THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE
AND
> > THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU
WHO
> > LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING
FOR
> > THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS.
BOTH
> > ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE
WANTED
> > TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR !
> >
> > AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND
CONTINUES
> > TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE
WILL
> > HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT.
> > LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM
HUMANITY'S
> > FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE
> > DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS
WORLD
> > WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE ARE,
THAT
> > FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE
THIS
> > PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT
> > BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A
PROFOUNDLY
> > DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS
SIMPLY
> > STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB.
I AM
> > NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER-
MINDED
> > THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN SRI
> > LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED
LOOSE
> > IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS
AND
> > SETTLE THERE.
> >
> > PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF
IDEAS
> > WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN
THOSE
> > IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE.
> >
> > > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or
the
> > > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing?
> >
> > THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE
CONTEXT OF
> > ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS.
> >
> > Whether they are
> > > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White
Ascended
> > > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term)
makes
> > > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root races
idea
> > > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit
> > > literatures means 'white race.'"
> >
> > MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA /
ARYAN
> > WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY
NAME
> > HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU),
> > HARA (SHIVA),
> > HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ),
> > HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA),
> > ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER),
> > URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES,
> > ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES,
> > HURRI OF THE HURRIANS
> > HELI OF THE HELLENES
> > HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS)
> > OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA)
> > SOLE OF THE ROMANS
> > ETC.
> >
> > THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR
> > MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW
ELYM,
> > HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA,
ETC.,
> > WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC. MEANING 'OF-
FROM
> > OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC.
> >
> > NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'.
> >
> > 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE.
> >
> > > Quoted from:
> > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html
> > >
> > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references
to
> > HPB's
> > > writings where we could find support for his statements.
> > >
> > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood
or
> > > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings does
she
> > > use these terms?
> > >
> > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE
under
> > > the term "Aryan(s) Race."
> > >
> > > Daniel H. Caldwell
> > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth
> > >
> > > adept astronomers of II 699
> > > adepts I vii; II 495
> > > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495
> > > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576
> > > ancestors of Egyptians II 328
> > > Arabs are later II 200
> > > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n
> > > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433
> > > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352
> > > Atlanteans taught II 426
> > > born in the north II 768
> > > branches of II 106
> > > bull symbolizes II 533
> > > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452
> > > Carlyle q on II 470
> > > cataclysm will destroy II 445
> > > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n
> > > common religion before separation I xxix
> > > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603
> > > decimal system I 360-2
> > > descend fr yellow Adams II 426
> > > dvijas II 469
> > > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743
> > > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9
> > > era, figures given II 68n
> > > Europeans & Christians latest I 425
> > > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4
> > > Fohat key to, religions I 673
> > > height of, after third subrace II 753
> > > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406
> > > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1
> > > influence on Babylonian myth II 130
> > > initiated, view of Moon I 396
> > > Kabbala came fr I 376
> > > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n
> > > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534
> > > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5
> > > languages II 199-200 &nn
> > > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356
> > > many colors of II 249-50
> > > migrated to India II 609
> > > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743
> > > Mysteries based on number ten II 603
> > > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n
> > > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356
> > > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741
> > > Peris or Izeds were II 394
> > > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387
> > > Rama first divine king of II 495
> > > rel concepts not just physiological II 526
> > > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10
> > > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750
> > > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n, 200
&n
> > > separated two - three million years ago II 425
> > > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614
> > > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31
> > > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158
> > > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100
> > > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3
> > > taught emanation, not creation II 54
> > > tribes conquered Egypt II 746
> >
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >




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