Theos-Talk Archives (February 2002 Message tt00235)

Saturday, February 09, 2002

Dear Jerry:

I will try and get out of the long list of ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
here. And perhaps start a new string.


(1).
Nadis, chakras, plexi to my understanding all represent centers
in physiological man's body that are reflections from the astral
for specific purposes. Since H P B does not go into specifics, I
guess they are known to her but are not discussed with a reason.
Looking at 7-fold man one might guess that behind the astral
stand various orders of pranic forces which would be dual in
kind.

In the Barker Edn of the MAHATMA LETTERS starting on p. 45 - 51
we are given a survey of man's involution from Spiritual being
down to our present condition. I would conclude that these
plexi/chakras, etc... follow the path of analogy.

I find no reason to believe that activating those plexi by
physiological disciplines as in hatha-yoga will lead the Man of
Force and Decisions -- the Perceiver and Chooser within -- to
real progress. But although there will be some effect, it
probably lasts for a life-time at most and remains unregulated
and relatively unknown by the time the body dies. In terms of
reincarnation what then happens? Probably a tendency will have
been implanted in the skandhas -- and that will then be picked up
next incarnation -- to what ultimate end, I cannot envisage
accurately. But it doe not sound to me as though any of those
practices are idealistic, altruistic and noble. Most are focused
on the acquirement of personal powers and the potential
subjugation of other and certain aspects of Nature to the
personal will of the individual --- and that has all the
ear-marks to me of black magic. It is actuated by selfishness
rather than generosity and benevolence. But, as usual others may
have different views.

(2)

Turning to the basis for world religions. Regardless of priestly
overlays, how do they all stack up? I see great similarities in
all, The objective, mainly is the improvement of man morally.
The virtues are all similar. The nature of the arguments
relating to metaphysics differ. In ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET
DOCTRINE H P B has traced for us several of those theogonies and
made clear the above contention. [ see S D I 363, 424 -445; ii
23, 42, 143-4; 359, 764 767.

As I see it all start with the Spiritual unity, thereafter the
cycles of evolution in various ways and degrees follow ( see
MAHATMA LETTERS pp 45-51 ).

If we agree that at core and in spiritual essence all are equal
in potential, there is no further need for any separation or any
pretense of authority. We are all brothers and as fellow
students we help each other.


(3)

Spirit or Spiritual Essence may be ineffable, but that does not
remove its omnipresence. Its reflections make for differences
and these can be traced and viewed as component stages in a vast
conjoint evolution where the atom, the man and the UNIVERSE are
seen to correspond in many ways. By not emphasizing this basic
unity mankind has no real basis for understanding the rationale
of brotherhood and mutual assistance, or any of the virtues.


(4)

Turing to Evolution. We are told there are two poles that are
ever present" PRIMORDIAL MATTER and SPIRITUAL DIVINE ESSENCE.
Actually they are one. Philosophers asking themselves why this
is so came up with the concept that the INEFFABLE ONE determined
to know itself. Whereupon it agreed that one half of its BEING
might assume temporarily a "lesser position." Thus the material
"pole" was set into function and manifestation as we know it
descended from SPIRIT into MATTER. It assumed as a mass the
position of a "mirror." In that mirror a reflection of the ONE
SPIRIT was to be gradually built up through the continued efforts
of the evolutionary urge that returned all the parts to final
UNITY. But the unity thus achieved would the include all the
experiences undergone by all parts, taken together and
synthesized into the UNIVERSAL MIND and the immutable LAWS of
cause and effect (Karma).

I am sure that faults can be found with this over simplified and
non-detailed view, but the 1st Vol. of The SECRET DOCTRINE tells
most if not all of it.

To us bond to and limited by matter, it appears intellectually
that chaos reigned and perhaps still largely reigns. Yet the
contrast of orderly action is also present. They balance and
harmonize. The individuality of the atom is viewed as
indeterminacy since no one can predict how it will act.

As I see it, it is impossible for "order: to spring out of
"disorder" unless there is some indwelling or resident
intelligence that makes choices and those would be based on a
conscious awareness of environment and the potentials of choice.
It also implies freedom the make choices in several ways -- as we
all know.


(5)

No I do not believe evolution and progress are solely linear.
Every geometrical figure starts (as we do) from a "point."
Around the point we may assume there is a "field of force" the
nature of which is determined by the capacities, qualities, and
motives of the "point." Now, if the point develops into a line
(of time or Force ?) in regard to other points of similar equal
or dissimilar force, we have motion . One might view such motion
as point to line, line to surface, surface moving thorough space
produces volume. Rotate the cube, in its various motions as a
whole in various directions so formed, and we can mentally watch
it develop into a sphere of matter, of force, of influence that
impinges on many others. And still we have only looked at this
from the material point of view.

But the material is the child ( because physical matter is
condensed out of the astral). And the astral develops upon the
patterns of Life energy called Prana/Jiva. In turn those are
moved by emotion, desire, passion and Kama. Superior to all
these is MANAS -- the Mind, and the power of planning wielded by
free thought. But the mind is in its turn ruled by the WISDOM OF
DISCRIMINATION -- which we might call Buddhi. And over all is
the Individual "Ray" of the ONE SPIRIT Thus the concept of the
MONAD encompasses all.

It is quite true that very moment the delicate balance of
spirit/matter and virtue/vice is continually changing in the
impact of vibrating life-progress -- for individual and for the
race. Each individual is empowered to make what changes it can
within the limits of its particular environment for the moment,
but that does not restrict it whether in past or future, from
making vast changes in its nature and gradually changing its
constitution and environment.


(6)

To me the concept of the "eternal Pilgrim" is basic to these
ideas of evolution and purpose. But this takes the motivation out
of the reign and limits of matter, and places them where the real
source of power and self-determination lie: the Spiritual Person
within each of us. But if this is denied, then the whole edifice
falls. "Maya" is a fine word to indicate, perhaps that we have
reached the limit to which we can explain things. But that does
not mean that other minds have not penetrated further and
discovered the causes of "maya" itself. Lets take the case of
the Mahatmas (if one agrees They exist). Where did they finalize
their 'evolution?' Can we assume that They are able to see into
the causes of ours? Does their Wisdom enable them to help us ?

As I see, it Law can never emerge from chaos. If we were to
accept that we would have first to say how and where did matter
emerge from? What is Space? How does any particle of matter get
located? Are there laws pertaining to those things at the dim
borders of manifestation? If so how were they constructed and
instituted? Are there any limits to chaos? And so on...

To me there is a wide difference between "statistical prediction"
and quantum mechanics and indeterminacy in practical application,
They are related, but how ? what are the bonds there ? I think
that a unified field theory is in order or else we leave a very
large gap.

Symbiosis to me is a neat way of admitting coexistence and
inter-relationship without saying how or why this happens. I do
not see the advantage of shying away from the admitting of vast
laws -- and those are already present and in operation in Nature.
Science uncovers them gradually. But they have always been
there. They support and nurture us all. Of course if we admit
this we are no longer "discoverers" but are merely confirmers of
facts.

Example: the laws of chemistry, physics, sociology, psychology
and mutual relationships, mathematics, etc.. have always been
operating even if Science had not described them. We and Nature
do not fall apart simply because no one has analyzed and
described our probably reason for existence or decided how we
ought to be acting together, or apart.


(7)

I would say clearly that in my opinion, that which is called
Mahayana Buddhism is directly derived from primitive and original
THEOSOPHY ( not the small portion that H P B was responsible for
giving out to us 120 years ago, but the whole doctrine of which
the "Elder Brothers are the custodians. ).

Hope this is helpful, I have enjoyed this exchange.

Dal



Dallas



=====================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 12:34 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Cc: theos-l@list.vnet.net
Subject: to Dallas

<<<<<<<<<<<Dear Dallas, I agree, but "well acquainted" doesn't
mean that she is right about everything. She does, in fact, have
a few errors
and we are all going to have to accept that fact.
DTB NO ARGUMENTS. SHE SAY THAT OF HER WORKS TOO. But I do
not known enough to presume to tell when and how she may have
erred. Others have done exactly that and they have
presumed.>>>>>

(1)

JERRY: Look at the 2nd para under "Nadis" on page 21 of INNER
TEACHINGS and it is very plain to anyone that she is referring to
chakras here, not nadis (in this para she calls them "plexus"
which is a clear reference to chakras, not nadis). This is just
one example.




*************************

<<<Her job as I see it, was to unify and make sense of a mélange
that was (and still is from the
purely materialistic point of view very CHAOTIC.) Every
religion, philosophy or science starts with a basis. If that
basis is common (as she claims) then the similarities are to be
expected.>>>


(2)
JERRY: For "basis" I would say "assumption." Are the initial
assumptions of the world's religions the same? I don't think so,
as some posit a creative God while others do not. Some posit
reincarnation, and others not, etc. Probably all emphasize the
need for love and compassion, though. I am still wondering,
myself, if such a unification is possible.

*****************************

<<<<I would be very happy if eventually, I can develop the
ability to find, or create, a "string" such as she did, to bind
those flowers. So to me there is as base the "flowers of
similitude,"
the string of laws and development that binds them, and finally
the bouquet is made presentable for all to use and feel inspired
from.>>>

JERRY: Yes, in that she was showed genius.

======================================

<<<DTB From the writings of G de P I see his has deeply imbibed
from Theosophy, The SECRET DOCTRINE etc... but his presentation
is for me marred when at times he speaks down to people telling
them that he is "advanced" or that "they" wont understand.>>>

JERRY: Yeah, but maybe he was a bit advanced. Is that possible.

<<<<I fault hi for this as the same UNIVERSAL SPIRIT is common to
each of us and is in fact our HIGHER SELF. Everyone ought to be
encouraged to rise to their highest potential. No one ought to
be discouraged. >>>

(3)


JERRY: OK, but "universal spirit" is ineffable and cannot be put
into words, and most people are unaware of its commonality. In
what way did he discourage people?

========================================

DTB The SECRET DOCTRINE starts with indeterminacy and chaos
theory in the materials to be used for a new manifestation.
Quantum theory comes into play when the immortal Egos and the
Divine Instructors, the Cosmocratores and the "Builders" enter
the scene to make sense out of that chaos. Those are said to be
human intelligences which have risen to th level of world and
universal perceptions to serve Nature (the Universe) as her
supervisors and assistants in the grand project of
reconstruction. Such reconstruction is devised for the education
and progress of all the milliards of component of Nature -- How
else to explain it ?


(4)


JERRY: I agree. But you seem to be admitting that the foundation
of manifestation (order) is probability (chaos). I have been
trying to say that these two always have to go together, like
spirit and matter. Order and cosmos and laws etc etc all have to
do with conditional manifested existence, as does evolution.
Orderly manifestation, alias cosmos, springs up from chaos, and
eventually returns to it. Thus all manifestion, including the
laws that govern it, are relative and conditional, and that is
all that I have been trying to say.

********************************

<<<Indeterminacy is seen only if we consider the hosts of Monads
of lesser experience, who are still to develop self-consciousness
into a concentrating and focusing field for self-development.
Then determinacy with self-conscious concern and a care for
others arises as a determining factor. Pushing that still
further the study of the Universe becomes the program and
curriculum of every immortal Pilgrim.>>>>


(5)


JERRY: It is here where we have some disagreement. You seem to be
looking at evolution as a linear progression beginning with
indeterminancy and reaching, at some point, determinancy. I can't
accept that idea. At every second throughout duration, both order
and chaos exist together and function together. Also, I don't
believe that the "eternal pilgrim" is anything more than maya
itself.

****************************

<<<Once that is achieved the laws of mass action, indeterminacy,
and quantum mechanics become a general observational position,
It is much like the man on the observation terrace of the Empire
State Building, looking down at people and vehicles, might wonder
at their seemingly intelligent stopping, starting and
avoidances --
if he is not familiar with traffic systems and symbols, or fails
to see the patterns that a vast diversity of individuals accept,
and voluntarily impose on themselves, for the sake of communal
safety and progress.>>>

JERRY: I believe that such an outlook or observation is possible
from beginning to end of any manvantara. Those traffic patterns
are statistically predictable, but the traffic pattern of any one
person is not.

************************************

<<<Our Science, looking speculatively at the atoms, molecules and
cells -- as the building blocks of matter used in all beings, may
wonder at their degree of intelligence, but do not yet dare to
entirely credit them with consciousness and the ability to
voluntarily follow patterns of force which they perceive, each at
their own level, in cooperation with all the rest.>>>

JERRY: They are getting there, though. Symbiosis is slowly
replacing the survival of the fittest. As to consciousness,
science can't even define it.

*******************************

<<<<Theosophy draws our attention to the cooperative aspect of
nature. I think we need to trust it that far, or "evolution"
would have no real discernable meaning. Our presence here under
the materialistic concept is illogical -- but others may hold
other views which when put together will still not entirely meld.
In The SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I p 181 we are given a brief view
of the three main evolutionary streams of forces that are forever
intertwined as the 3 snakes of the Caduceus are.>>>


(6)



JERRY: Agreed, but it is important to remember that all three
evolutionary streams are mayavic. They do not lead to the
creation of any real permanent entities or "eternal pilgrims."

======================================

<<<That H P B went to Tibet is not material to the age-old
Theosophical philosophy that emanates from the Trans-Himalayan
Adepts. They say she did. She says she did. Arguments are for
what reason ?>>>


(7)


JERRY: The way I see it, either she went to them or they came to
her, because somehow she did gain some insight into Mahayana
Buddhism.

Jerry S.