Theos-Talk Archives (November 2001 Message tt00198)

dear CeeKaye:

All the tools for self-knowledge are within.

If you desire to follow the operations of karma, then you will
need clocks and calendars.

Astronomy will provide you with information of observations on
the stars, planets, earth, sun and their relative movements -- as
non are static.

Man as CONSCIOUSNESS is not static, but is UNITARY. Within the
purview of experience, past and present lie the seeds for the
future.

Are we yet wise enough to mark the commencement and progress of
our personal Karma?

Are we, have we developed (other than a vague hope) the required
tools to be able to use in astrology will be of assistance? And,
then as there are many kinds of astrology, which one shall we
choose? It all comes down to actual personal hand-on knowledge.

And that means study and devoting time to acquiring information.

But prior to that do we know what our motive is? Are we trying
to acquire something for nothing?

Are throwing pebbles into a large pond in the hope we might hit a
fish for dinner ?

I do not wish to discourage, but I would hope that any movement
into a new area of study be preceded with an adequate MAP OF THE
POTENTIAL PROBLEMS AHEAD.

Best wishes,

Dal

====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: CeeKaye [mailto:christina@md.prestige.net]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 7:50 AM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Significance of a birthday

Hiya,

You said:

I do not see how "astrology" is helpful in moral-self-reform.

It may indicate what some others (in general, or in specific)
think our physiological birth and life has had influence on our
present position and condition (speaking of that from the
"embodied consciousness" view point.

A view of our physical condition or even of our Lower-Manasic
(mind/emotional condition), cannot assist the HIGHER MANAS linked
to ATMA . The Lower Manas needs to devise a way of finding out
what it knows is permanent and worthwhile and what is the reverse
of that IN ITSELF.

May i respond? Perhaps astrolical information is one of the
tools for the
lower manas
to use in the process of finding out how best to use ITSELF for
understanding what is permanent.

For instance, i read that Moon in Gemini people haven't much
invested in emotions and emotional resposes to anything...and
has to be careful of dogmatic thinking, and views harshly the
world.

The "map" gives me an understanding of what things i must
transcend in
my lower manas thinking to BECOME, and WAKE UP.

For myself, and especially people around me directly, it is very
difficult
to pinpoint
what basic aspects of this personality impede our ability to
learn.
Astrology, if taken
seriously, represents the goal of helping ourselves and others
transcend our
egocentric emotions
and to bust out of the paradigm of Western culture.

By the way, Dearest Dallas, i am by no means an astrolgy expert;
and, i am
sure that astrology is not
for everyone. As you imply, it would take a certain discipline
for Lower
Manas to devise a way of finding out
what it knows is permanent and worthwhile and what is the reverse
of that IN
ITSELF. Theosophy study takes that
discipline. With study do we develop the needed discipline? If
i do not
know all aspects of myself beforehand, doesn't
that make Theosophical study a bit like running in circles?
Sometimes
knowing the "why" and "how so" of our behavior on an individual
level
reveals just how universal our existence is in reality. One step
closer to
understanding and recognizing
our TRUE REALITY.

Well, maybe that's just how it is for me.

I ask myself is Astrology an intuitive or a romantic interest?
Vedic
Astrology, Horary Astrology contain huge
amounts of data and have ancient origins. The answer for me is
intuitive.
A tool to use for guidance to
awareness of egocentric tendancies and from there i can continue
on the
inward journey with confidence.
For someone else, the subject my seem frivilous, or unproductive.

Nonetheless, i heed your thoughts about our first duty being to
learn what
our powers are. Oh, and i would
never ever consider paying anybody for "knowledge". As a matter
of fact, if
i ever do learn enough about
Vedic Astrology [or any other suject for that matter], i would be
sure to
give the knowledge to everyone i could!

Thanks for the rest of the info too...

Look forward to your thoughts, as always!

Christina







-----Original Message-----
From: dalval14@earthlink.net [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 6:43 AM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Significance of a birthday


Thursday, November 08, 2001

Dear CeeKaye:

As you ask me t look at your answers, so I in turn ask you to run
through the comments I will place just after yours herein.

Dal

=================================

-----Original Message-----
From: CeeKaye [mailto:christina@md.prestige.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 7:10 AM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Significance of a birthday

Please read my notes below:

-----Original Message-----
From: dalval14@earthlink.net [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:16 PM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Significance of a birthday


Tuesday, November 06, 2001

DTB We are seeking for some reason to secure a view of the
crucial events we may have to meet in this life? If so, Why?

CK --my thoughts on the subject of meeting objectives in
this lifetime have
always been foremost in my mind. Up to now i feel as though i
need to grab hold
of some sort of "map" of my life's pathways -- "you are
here" --. For orientation, and
for purpose and direction i would seek out the means. If there
is the chance i may
gain perspective and what experiences i should seek out in this
life through such study of
astrology then i am ready to know! Besides, i have always
thought it an interesting
subject. [it is funny -- astrology is number crunching and
astronomy -- and i never
have had an affinity for math in any form]
_____________________________________________________________

DTB Theosophy states that WE are the SPIRIT ( Atma) the
PERCEIVER. {for me to explain what I secure from Theosophy, I
will have to refer to some of the technical information
concerning the existence and operation of the 7 PRINCIPLES in
us. -- the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) is one of the best books to
use. }

We are, (all of us) engaged in developing our control of a
particular plane or aspect of ourselves in and on which we act
while AWAKE. The "Higher" is to observe, understand, and make
friendly but firm use of the "Lower." And, the "Lower" will most
probably object. We will then have to discover why it objects
and whether the explanations it gives to us are universally
valid, or are personal only to its ease and comfort. The
capacity to be impersonal and detached, is one we all have, and
ought to make sure we understand, and therefore, we can use.

For most of us, this "Lower" is an aspect of "Kama-manas," or the
Lower Mind which is a mixture of Mind ( the power to think and
remember) and our desires and passions -- the WE is always
present and it unmoved. The ME, when using the Lower Manas is
subject to moods, reveries, selfishness, and a sense of
ignorance. It is asking this question: "What is my life map to
be ?"

It is important to realize WE always have these TWO points of
view.

1. THE PERMANENT EGO or Buddhi-Manas overshadowed by
SPIRIT (Atma), this is the DIVINE TRIAD and gives us the ability
of making free choices. It is detached, universal, free of any
self-interest. It acts as a kind of monitor and tutor in us, as
the friend and "father" of our consciousness, when it is working
or enthralled by the Lower Mind. It, the "Divine in us" gives us
the stability and the true sense of "I-ness." or, Egoship in an
impersonal and wise way.

2. THE LOWER MIND or Kama-Manas, is a variable, plane where
desires and passions operate and these are always changeable,
sometimes they are good and sometimes they are "bad" [ If you
can secure a copy of Mr. Judge's LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME,
Vol. I, Letter 9, could be consulted with advantage. It is
available "on-line" through http://www.blavatsky.net ]

========================================

DTB - The purpose with which we do anything carries the power
of our
desire and this can be directed for self-benefit or for the
benefit of others. Whatever it may be there will be some
personal Karma attached to it. Nothing is insignificant.

CK --Now there is why i am so interested to know if there is
any potential for
right knowledge in astrology. As long as i can do anything to
help others it is
right action. To help others i must know first what constitutes
right action for me; i am
this individual, who, despite the impedence of her lower manas,
possesses a vague sense of
KNOWING i must seek meaning and TRUTH in life. Through the lower
manas we reach the higher
self. Since thus far i haven't "been assigned any specific
mission in life", perhaps it is
possible that the astrologic snapshot of the universe at my time
of birth would provide me with enough
clues to accelerate my finding one of those paths...?

Frankly i am not concerned with Karma and consequences to
my personal being [as always, i will take good or bad as it
comes!]

As you say, everything is significant. I am urged to be
a catalyst in change for the betterment of all. Therefore, i
must better myself; hence i must get on the right path to
within.
_________________________________________________________________
__

DTB Your mission in life is (and this applies to all
of us equally) first to learn what are our powers. Then the
plane and field of operation does not lie far away, but in the
family environment where Karma (ours) has placed us. To make
improvements on what we see or feel about "ourselves" implies
that the Higher Mind is looking at the Lower mind, and is not
satisfied. But, it is the Lower Mind which needs to make the
improvements it senses on itself. It is like making renovations
while living in one's own house.

First we see that there are improvements needed, then we ask
ourselves where are the tools. Next, we say how do I use them on
myself ?

And for such exercise, and work we need to do the work ourselves,
and not accept or seek for some outside help unless it is totally
disinterested.

One important criterion is always to be kept in mind: WISDOM IS
NEVER FOR SALE. Only the "Lower-Mind" in operation makes a
business out of teaching. It is easy to see that such a Lower
Mind that offers to "teach" has limited knowledge, or it would
not be asking for some kind of a return.

I do not see how "astrology" is helpful in moral-self-reform.

It may indicate what some others (in general, or in specific)
think our physiological birth and life has had influence on our
present position and condition (speaking of that from the
"embodied consciousness" view point.

A view of our physical condition or even of our Lower-Manasic
(mind/emotional condition), cannot assist the HIGHER MANAS linked
to ATMA . The Lower Manas needs to devise a way of finding out
what it knows is permanent and worthwhile and what is the reverse
of that IN ITSELF.

Actually Lower Manas divides itself into two (when we truly
meditate -- and in that condition we seek to understand our LOWER
SELVES in the LIGHT of the TRUE -- the interior "God," our own
HIGHER SELF, which knows that "Virtue" is living under the
discipline of the Universal Self that is the "Friend of all
Creatures."

The first of these "virtues" is charity and universal "love."

Then, 2nd comes Harmony, which, through brotherhood and
friendliness (a "peacefulness") balances cause and effects in us.
We get to see "karma" as effect is related to some earlier cause
we generated -- now working through us.

3rd is patience. We need to be patient with ourselves, if we
wish to do good. It cannot be rushed and then "set-aside." It
is a faculty (as well as all the others) that has to be kept
awake and alive and active all the time, with a gentle persistent
pressure.

The 4th is called "indifference" -- this is not selfish
isolation, but a deep friendliness and generosity, which seeks to
share in and evoke the best of every relationship and
circumstance in family, friends, community and nation -- it is
expansive. But it is also an unshakable and resolute
independence -- one which induces us to do that which is
spiritually the best, in any situation.

>From this arises the application the 5th "virtue" a dauntless
energy to know the TRUTH, and to do away with all ignorance.
[This seems to be the base from which you ask.] . It is the
personal use of an impersonal perception of "that which is the
right thing to do in this circumstance."

The 6th is an active entry into the search, and the study for
defining WISDOM -- as a universal and self-proving system -- in
which we are gradually making ourselves aware of the approaching
"gates" of Universal Wisdom. It is a universal process of
"self-initiation" into a higher wisdom, and, that wisdom is the
potential property of all Humanity.

This is the 7th "virtue" -- it is fully shared. It is the "God
in Nature." It involves the whole of humanity, and, in fact, all
Nature is involved, [ NATURE is GOD -- a fact that most
priesthoods try to conceal.] as the general process of
cooperative and intertwined living becomes perceptible to our
"opened eyes."

This is an inescapable situation, and we are all plunged in it.
Some (1) know this wholly -- they are our "spiritual teachers"
and our own interior HIGHER SELF (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) is one of
Them.. Some (2) know this partially, and we are included in this
always changing situation of self-reform.. And some (3) are not
yet aware of it, and are ignorant of their condition as
Kama-Manasic entities. The 7th "virtue" is illumination or the
condition of the purified Kama-Manas that is now able to see and
embody the TRUE -- and let the interior HIGHER SELF work in and
through our personalities.

===================================



DTB I suggest that our first objective is to do those duties
that are
immediately around us. One of the fist is to become wiser in
regards to the actual operations of our Life and its relation to
the earth and others: family, community, nation, etc... If we
desire to help others, is such a desire un-expecting, -- I
mean -- is a reward or recognition expected?

CK --NO, absolutely not!! What good comes out of
self-service that helps
humanity? In a sense, my search for meaning in my life appears
self-serving; but the
context of self-serving changes with regards to our existence and
its relation to
the universe. I am consumed by desire to do the right thing
universally. I strive for
that.

=============================

DTB Good.

=============================

DTB We alone can determine how useful our reorientation ought
to be
and where we ought to find help in considering and adjusting our
objectives. The views of other people, while welcome, might be
also confusing. All final decisions are ours. We as "embodied
SUNS" guide and control the "planets" of our daily duties.
Persistence, devotion, generosity and regularity mark the ability
to make true alterations in our life's chosen Path -- alterations
which will help both our own advance and the conditions of
others. I would say that out present situation marks clearly the
opportunities we have to learn, help and improve.

CK --I cannot answer a question of whether or not the
study of astrology is a
true gauge of the tendencies of my heart. Theosophy provides
wisdom and TRUTH; it enlightens
attitude towards life. Now then, is there in astrology a map of
who i am relative to the
universe available to study and use for navigation?

I do not know anyone who is familiar with astrology in
such depth.
Further, i could research using the internet, but where does one
go to validate collected info? If
you know of a resource please let me know

========================================

DTB I do not think modern "astrology" will help you, or any
one, really. Much of the ancient lore is lost. As you observe
Theosophy drives us to "look within" We the HIGHER SELF -- the
DIVINE TUTOR are at one end of the great ladder of evolution.
We, the Kama-Manasic self -- the personality are near the lowest
rungs of self-development.

We do have a very important advantage.

We realise that NATURE runs lawfully and exactly.

We do realise to some extent, that we are IMMORTALS.

The process of living is what we will always encounter as
"successive days in that SCHOOL" -- the SCHOOL of LIFE UNIVERSAL.

The ultimate goal of all these many lives and this SCHOOL is that
we graduate as spiritual beings. Our "Personality" will have
gone through all experiences and will have purified itself into a
spiritual IMMORTAL. This is illustrated in the concepts offered
of the great Buddhas. They are a Band of WISE MEN who have
become responsible for the evolution of humanity and of all other
beings. They help Nature and voluntarily continue to participate
in the essentials of support and advice to all candidates for
WISDOM. We elect ourselves when we determine we will become
wise, eventually.

========================================


CK And below is what i sent to Marina [please consider]:


I bet a lot of us are Sagittarius...born with Aquarius rising at
the time of
birth.

Seems that as truth seekers, we have a very vague idea that we
are searching
for meaning in this life. But, does the planetary alignment at
the birth
time etch into our being who we are to become?

Our destinies are to be sought out, by looking within ourselves
to find the
still small voice of the higher self; could astrological
profiling give us
the guidance towards finding our inner voice? Could the
information outline
goals for this lifetime? In what capacity am i to serve my
brothers and
sisters and make a difference? These questions are only
answerable by
oneself. Meditation is the way to the higher self. But is
astrology the
map of our individual place in the universe?

Funny thing is, all of the most important answers about astrology
are
available -- BUT FOR A PRICE $. We need to sift thru a whole
lot of junk
before we can extract the TRUE nature of Astrology...

Is it worth looking for this information? Or, do we focus on
what we KNOW
as TRUTH of existence as outlined in our Theosophical studies? I
would not
want to waste any time chasing shadows, and i am sure you would
agree.

===============================

DTB Well said. If by experience we know it is "junk". and a
money making scam, then what can we trust?

I would say that we are forced to ultimately rely on our HIGHER
SELVES. And that is so because it orients itself intuitionally
to the TRUE the FAIR, and the JUST. It never seeks any kind of
advantage. It lures no one. But it always tries to let us do
our own learning.

Consider a known fact which most of us may not have fully
realized: We have all gone to schools and some to college -- we
all have heard the same lessons -- some took advantage of lessons
and text books and others for various reasons did not. All of us
offered the same opportunities decided FOR OURSELVES how we would
use and apply them. We are thus always training ourselves and
choosing to use or abuse the opportunities that are ours, daily,

BEST WISHES,

As ALWAYS,

Dal

=============================

Thanks Dal.

Until next time,

Christina




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