Theos-Talk Archives (May 2001 Message tt00023)

Dear Jerry:

Thanks

More notes/comments below

Dal

=======================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 4:21 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: First Response to Dallas

To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: RE: More Responses to Dallas


DALLAS: Dear Jerry
Merely to say "it is an illusion" does not make it so. If it is
an "illusion" then what is the REALITY ?

JERRY: It appears as an illusion to me, Dallas. If is appears
real to you,
then go for it.

NEW DTB May I persist? What do you perceive as REALITY ? How
do you perceive it? Can I share in that perception ? Can anyone
else share? Or, Do we make our own ?


============================================



OLD JERRY: The Inner Ruler is an illusion or "ray" of something
else.

DTB: OF WHAT

JERRY: I believe that there is a Ground, Blavatsky's Beness is a
good name
for it, that is the Source of both samsara (relativity/existence)
and
nirvana (absolute/nonexistence). Your Inner Ruler, Eternal
Pilgrim, Higher
Self, Reincarnating Ego, Higher Mind, atma-buddhi, and such are
all mayavic
forms within samsaric-nirvanic existence and pure illusion. I
believe that
both formless spirit and solid concrete matter are imaginary
extremes, two
sides of the same coin, and that very coin only exists in our
minds. I
believe that when this coin is put aside, we can directly see
what is really
going on.

NEW DTB	I can see your point, but, as above, how is REALITY
perceived ? Will a mental concept be acceptable? If so then
however mayavic it might be, the MEMORY of that moment of
PERCEPTION persists -- I would then ask where is it impacted and
how can we re-access it ? Are there any time-limits to such
MEMORIES ?

=============================

OLD JERRY: The I to which you refer above is either the ego or
Ego, and both
are illusions.

DTB: OF WHAT ?

JERRY: Of the human mind, what the Hindus call manas and the
Buddhists call
citta. What do you think "the mind is the slayer of the real"
means?

NEW DTB	The "mind" that is "killed" is the temporary
reflection -- the mind of the Personality -- or LOWER MANAS --
that, except for its aspirations and altruistic tendencies --
would be destroyed as an "entity" at death. However the impress
made (as Karma, or a the permanent impact of its existence left
on the fabric of the AKASA would in my understanding persist as
it becomes part of the joint KARMA of the Universe and my
fellows.

==============================================


OLD JERRY: I don't assume that any of the 7 planes are "real."
The physical
plane seems real in the waking state, but then again a dream
seems real
while dreaming. What is really going on, is not as it appears to
our senses.

DTB: THEN WHAT IS GAINED BY OUR PERCEPTIONS ?

JERRY: Illusion and maya are what's gained. Reality is what is
really going
one behind what appears to our perceptions. We all see a tree,
call it a
tree, and then believe that the tree has objective reality. It
doesn't.

NEW DTB	I understand that on the physico-astral plane there is
constant change (maya) but, in terms of EVENT, that which has
happened cannot be effaced. I understand that that impress is
permanent. (Of course 'permanency' might be deemed limited in
time. But for there to be a reincarnation of Universes (still in
time) the permanency of Karma would bridge the gap not only of
adjacent Universes but of necessity (Nidana) would be prolonged
so long as any individual or personal disturbance remained. And
then, I ask myself -- What happens to the various "life-forms"
that were part of that illusory sequence -- to borrow your
concept.

Does the UNIVERSAL MONAD vanish? If so why all the effort? Why
the NOBLE EIGHT-FOLD PATH? why any striving towards "PERFECTION
?"

I am convinced logically that everything has a PURPOSE regardless
of whether we might consider its presence, passage and
evanescence to be "ILLUSORY."

What is "illusory" in concept is it also an actuality on some
other plane of perception -- one from which we only secure an
"impressions ?"


-------------------



DTB:
SEPARATENESS IS NOT OF THE SPIRIT.
SEPARATENESS IS OF THE "MATTER" WHICH COMPOSES FORMS.

JERRY: Dallas, even HPB tells us that matter and spirit are two
sides of the
same thing. Why do you refuse to accept this teaching?
Separateness IS of
the spirit because there is no difference between matter and
spirit except
in our perception of it. As we descend from the highest cosmic
planes
downward, first we perceive spirit and then matter, and
separateness begins
with the very first step into spirit and only gets worse as we
descend into
matter.

NEW DTB	I think you "got me wrong." I do agree that what we
name "spirit" and "primordial matter" are both sides of the same
coin. This to me implies a third factor -- THAT SOMETHING
PERCEIVES THEM. Is that not the MIND, of whom one power is
perception, memory, comparison, logic, reasoning --- right up to
INTUITION ?

========================================



DTB: BUT WHY ARE FORMS MADE? If the components of forms are
"life-atoms" then the "illusory" and "temporary" situation has
the value of raising them to INDIVIDUALITY ( Self-Consciousness)
and the next step which they (we) induce is rising to SPIRITUAL
SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS. Unless I am much mistaken, Buddha taught
that.

JERRY: No, you won't find evolutionary development of
self-consciousness
anywhere in Buddhism. To the contrary, Buddha taught that there
is no self,
let alone self-consciousness.
He taught that these are dualistic terms that are transcended in
non-duality. BTW, forms are "made" in the Great Outer Abyss, the
third plane
downward in HPB's 7-planes model. There they are called shistas.

NEW DTB	As far as I know the "shistas" are the "seeds [of
Karma]" they are in effect the CAUSES of rebirth and of all the
many components (sheaths, vehicles, etc.} of the PERCEIVER
Soul ? Ego ? )


================================


DTB: IF IT IS A FACT THEN THEOSOPHY CERTAINLY DOES NOT IGNORE
IT.

JERRY: Liberation is a fact, and yes, Theosophy ignores it.

NEW DTB	Theosophy does not ignore it, And like Mahayana it seeks
to investigate and define it. If these teachings are age-old,
then the Buddha knew them well indeed, but he did not say all he
knew publicly -- as in the case of the wandering monk
Vacchagotta -- and his explanation to Ananda which followed the
encounter. [ see KEY p. 81 ]

I would also ask: "Liberation? For how long? Is that possibly
an "illusion," a "maya" also ?

==========================================


DTB: What does the Jivanmukta do to escape karma?

JERRY: Nothing at all, really.

DTB: Is it solely his own Karma or the KARMA OF EVERYTHING ELSE
that is
"escaped ? " What is the necessity of "escape?"

JERRY: Why the use of quotes? The word "escape" is yours not
mine. I have
never said that liberation is an escape by anyone from anything.

DTB: WHO or WHAT in Man's constitution does the "escaping?"

JERRY: There is no escaping. Liberation was defined by Buddha as
freedom
from suffering. So if you want to talk about escaping from
suffering, then
OK.

NEW DTB	Exactly. But that does not give any answer, does it ?

========================================


DTB: Are we so afraid of pain and suffering, especially of that
which we
have brought on ourselves by wrong choices in past and present ?

JERRY: This question suggests to me that you don't understand
what
liberation is all about. I blame the TSs.

NEW DTB	Blame does not explain. Errors in explanation can be
straightened if one goes to the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of the Masters
and H.P.B. -- as I see it. I seek to understand your point of
view especially when I read in S.D. II (bottom of page) that many
of the Egos returning into incarnation are named "returning
Nirvanees." [ I think in the S.D. Vol. II that pages 94-5 and
109-10 have a relevance to this.

===================================


DTB: HOW LONG DOES THE JIVANMUKTA "ESCAPE" IN TIME? And if this
escape occurs, then what happens to the JIVANMUKTA as an Entity ?
As I understand it the BUDDHA refused to enter Nirvana and become
a JIVANMUKTA. Then what was His reason? Is that given ? Where
is HE now ?

JERRY: The jivamukta is an illusionary self, just like the Higher
Self, the
Reincarnationg Ego, the atma-buddhi and all the rest. "He" never
existed as
an inherent person any more than you or I do. I could ask you
where you are
right now? But all I would get for an answer is where your
physical body and
mind were currently located in space-time, and that won't really
answer the
question, will it?

NEW DTB	I do not locate them "in" the body, etc.. I would say
that the PERCEIVER uses those 'SHEATHS - BODIES - VESTURES' as
vehicles and tools for its perceptions. But what does it have to
do with those truly "illusory - mayavic" events?

Unless I and Theosophy are much mistaken, the reason for the
incarnation of the PERCEIVER -- SELF is to assist in the
development of a similar capacity of perception in the "monads
that have less experience." It is a service, a gift, of time,
energy and wisdom. The gift is offered when the composite
"mirror" intelligence, projected by the immortal and permanent
EGO, currently active in the Personality and the "brain-mind,"
(the Lower-Manas) asks and seeks for the truth as recorded in
that permanency of experience we call BUDDHI-MANAS (vehicle of
the ATMIC "RAY") I am aware you may say these are all
impermanent and mayavic -- as you said before -- but that does
not give a reason for their existence and activity, does it ?

==============================================


OLD DTB: Why should the Karmic record not be infallible?

OLD JERRY: Nothing, not even the Pope, is infallible.

DTB: THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND. I DO NOT
BELIEVE IN
MYSTERIES -- as so often the Church terminates questioning in its
Catechism:
"That is a mystery. Don't ask."

JERRY: The karmic records are located on Globe G on the causal
plane
together with the Lipikas. This Globe is still within the lower
four planes,
beneath spirituality and within mayavic illusion.

NEW DTB	Merely locating them in "Globe D" does not help me.
Everything in the present cycle manifests through that particular
density of substance. And as I see the SD teaching that this
"dipping" of the SPIRIT into this grossest of "matter'
conditions, is not for its benefit, but for the help that can be
extended to the intelligences that are currently closely invested
with the quality of present material life and work, I would call
that activity one of sacrifice and altruism.

=====================================


DTB: I DON'T BELIEVE THAT IN A UNIVERSE OF LAW THERE ARE NO
ULTIMATE ANSWERS
THAT We CANNOT INTUIT THEM.

JERRY: There are no such ultimates anywhere you care to look.
Even emptiness
is empty of inherent existence. If you intuitively think that an
ultimate
exists, then go for it. Try to find it. Observe it. Experience
it. Then look
a bit closer and you will see that it is not as ultimate as you
thought.
What is a "universe of law?" I cannot even think of law and order
without
chaos rearing up beside it.

NEW DTB	Thanks, regardless of how or where we characterize
purpose, intelligence, progress I find the Buddha always
expresses the concept of PERFECTION. IMPROVEMENT -- the "PATH,"
and the "NOBLE 8-FOLD PATH" of practical virtue is to me evidence
of that -- and in all the impermanence you sense there is always
the glimmer of PERMANENCE -- or the various levels of
"impermanence" would be unable to place any comparative values on
their existence, purpose and achievements.

I do not think these are useless discussions of irrelevancies.
If we have terms for them, then these discussions have been
conducted my others in past eras -- and I would assume that the
Buddha achieves the respect we all offer him because He KNEW WHAT
HE WAS TALKING ABOUT -- and expressed what he could in terms we
might begin to understand.

I would venture to say that this type of search tends to raise
our own level of thinking -- but I do not have terms to define
that -- so the mention of GLOBE D is for me merely an indication
of a general period in time and progress defined by some
qualities that envelope us all.

=======================================



DTB: But would you say the BUDDHA is fallible ? My understanding
is that he
passed out of our levels of illusion into the full light of TRUTH
UNIVERSAL
-- yet preserved a link intact to our plane of existence
(illusion) so as to
continue to help us out of our blindness and lack of perception.
How else
can this be done but by enfranchising the Mind from its illusions
of
separateness and form-limitation?

JERRY: Buddhism teaches that a Buddha has omniscience and knows
exactly what
to say and to do in order to help people at all levels of
understanding.
Does this make them infallible? I suspect that a Buddha is
fallible while
incarnate and infallible while dis-carnate.

NEW DTB	I believe we are all BUDDHAS in our highest and most
SPIRITUAL SELVES. The Buddha, Gautama, is one who realizing this
has so disciplined (see the Jataka stories) his life and motives
that ALTRUISM and TRUTH alone serve to guide his work, life and
teachings. HE is truly an IMMORTAL -- and as I think you rightly
surmise, the physical frame HE used is one so purified that his
SPIRITUAL PRESENCE could use and live in it and serve as a bridge
for contact with ordinary mortals. Certainly his example and
words have inspired a great section of humanity for many
centuries. Yet, he never founded a "RELIGION." He came as a
teacher, and he was a reformer of Hinduism, which had become
degraded by the brahmins who used the powers inherent in the
ancient teachings to obtain authority and rule arbitrarily and
for self-interest over the poor, the uneducated and those
incapable of thinking for themselves of their time. if a
religion subsequently developed it was those who followed who
devised rules and strictures and codified its beliefs.


====================================


DTB: AGREED -- SO THERE IS A UNIVERSAL LAW WITHIN WHICH We
ALL LIVE AND
DEVELOP. ALSO THERE ARE THOSE MEN/MINDS WHO HAVE "ESCAPED" THE
ILLUSIONS,
BUT HAVE NOT USED THEIR WISDOM TO SELFISHLY "ESCAPE" AND ABANDON
THEIR MORE
IGNORANT COMPANIONS ?

JERRY: You do seem to love this escapism business. Suppose a
magican were to
cast a spell and turn a stone into a horse so that everyone
around looking
at it saw the horse. Suppose that you were not taken in, and that
you could
still see the stone. This would be an example of your seeing
through an
illusion/desception, but where the heck does escape come into it?
Is waking
up from a long dream, an escape?

Well, maybe, but I think we can find much
more appropriate words. Our physical senses suggest to us that
material
objects really exist and that they are solid and hard and
substantial. We
can even weight them for "proof." Then along comes science and
tells us that
those same objects are really 99.99% empty space and that what we
are seeing
is just light bouncing off energy fields and entering our eyes
and then
being interpreted by the brain as solid objects. Do we believe
science or
our senses? In the same way, when we raises consciousness into
spirituality
and see things directly with spiritual vision, they no longer
appear as
solid hard objects. The solid hard substance of matter is an
illusion of the
brain/mind. In just this way as we come to see what is really
going on, we
leave suffering behind, we leave our illusions behind, and our
days are
filled with joy. Why do you insist on calling this an escape?

NEW DTB	I don't think you quite get my drift. The physical and
scientific views are well known to me in regard to the phenomenon
of matter - the whirling of sub-atomic particles, atoms,
molecules, etc... But the facts and descriptions fail to define
the CAUSE.
Our science limited by concepts of solidity and stability are so
far unable to define cause, reason, purpose. So hey have
declared for the past 150 or so years that phenomenal matter
developed (somehow) its own forms and conditions -- blind forces,
blind laws, no purposes, etc... and that leads no one to any kind
of understanding of basics.
Theosophy and the Buddha also started with the Spiritual CAUSES
of existence, and with the Karma that was generated by the Egoic
center of every living being -- that which gave it its temporary
or permanent conditions{s} .

As far as I can understand, Karma, Life, Existence are all
aspects of one invisible and undefinable REALITY -- or they would
not be of tangible perceptions. Nor would minds seek to
understand their origins -- being satisfied that they existed --
and somehow managed to co-exist.

The fact that accidents, the various conditions of birth -- some
of which seem to distort (without obvious reason) an individual's
abilities and opportunities, and unexplained changes of fortune,
which apparently do occur, (and remain inexplicable -- as chance,
luck, etc...) has spurred thinkers to consider the potential of
an EGO which bridged the gap of death and to which the Karma of
an INDIVIDUALITY was attached, and followed its new location in a
fresh Personality.

As I see it, reincarnation is the continuation (under personal
and Individual Karma) of a long series of lives strung as pearls
on a string to the thread of individual spiritual existence,
which from time to time uses bodies. The problem then arises:
why would something so WISE as a Buddha (or the ATMA) have
anything to do with a physical body -- so limiting and powerless
?

Why does the HIGHER MANAS work to frame a mirror of itself in
gross matter and endow it potentially with almost god-like powers
?

IS THIS CONCEPT NOT ONE THAT LEADS TO THE IDEA OF SELF-SACRIFICE
?


Best wishes,

Dal

---------------------------------
Jerry S.