Theos-Talk Archives (February 2001 Message tt00160)

February 23, 2001

Dear Jerry

Some notes below ?

D

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:25 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Response to Dallas

<<[Dallas]KARMA is called "an emanation of beings.">>
[Jerry]Agreed. Buddhists teach that the whole universe was
created by our own karma.
=============
DTB	MEANS TO ME WE ARE PRETTY STRONG STUFF for the benefit or
detriment of the future. We are "creators" and as such we affect
a wide circle -- which to me means: BE CAREFUL of what you say
or do.
==============

[Dallas]DTB so our age (spiritually, Monadically and
Egoically) will (we
presume ?) coincide with the universe>>

Jerry's Response: Probably lots longer than that, since we have
doubtless gone through many more manvantaras than this one.
But I do think that we were in on the beginning of this
manvantara, yes. Its all part of wheels within wheels and
as above so below. But we were not human beings then, and
so creation myths use terms like Manus and Cosmocratores.


DTB	Do the S.D. says and H.P.B. adds some very important facts
on this subject.


>>[Dallas]If for purposes of analysis, one desires to consider
the pattern
of evolution / involution, of : breathing out and breathing in,
then of
necessity from the ABSOLUTENESS there emerges in IT the very
first IDEA of
manifestation and the UNMANIFESTED LOGOS begins to awake (S.D. I
27-29)>>


[Jerry] I would say, rather, that from NONDUALITY emmantes all
dualities
such as evolution/involution and spirit/matter as well as
relative/absolute,
existence/non-existence, manifest/unmanifest, love/hate,
male/female,
inner/outer, objective/subjective, and so on.


[Dallas] DTB I would not disagree with those terms.>>



I suspect that few Theosophist really
understand duality and how it works. Rule number one: you
can't have one side without the other. HPB uses the example
of matter and spirit saying that they are like two sides
of the same coin. The same can be said for ALL dualities.
The idea of dualities emmanating from nonduality can be
found in Buddhism, Taoism, Vedanta, and others. Glad you
agree.
===========================


DTB	I was looking in the S.D. and found some references -- maybe
you also have them? S.D. II 553 -- on infinity and evolution;
the next few pages are really interesting to about p. 562.
TWO or DUALITY is covered on S.D. II 575, then 576m on to 586.
=========================================


<<DTB We use our comparative human terms. The Universe H.P.B.
says one place is devoted to the evolution of the spiritual Man
out of the personal, the physical and the selfish. All rules,
Laws, etc, that are included in the universe and which we might
term inter-active or cooperative, lead tom the support of life
everywhere. (as I see it ) Being an emanation of the ABSOLUTE
they are universal, impartial, fair, just and totally sensitive
to the motive impulse WE impart when we make choices
That's as I would express it Jerry, and I think you and I are not
very far apart, except in the use of some words.
Best wishes, as always,
Dal>>

As they say, the devil is in the details! I can't see Absolute
emmanating much of anything, else why the struggle to obtain
it? By definition (and you must have a different one) the
Absolute is permanent, unchanging, and perfect.
================================

DTB	I think that the eternal BACKGROUND which includes all is a
sound base (even in metaphysical thought) to place PERFECTION.
It is indescribable, yet must also contain all describable things
as a memory or record (AKASA) In this I see a knowledge of data,
history, events, causes, motives etc.. (all creative of some kind
of novelty) being transformed into WISDOM because the
applications of time, cycles, evolution, involution lends a
periodicity to the record and from that emerges (at least for the
manifested worlds and the MONADS involved in that) A COMPLETE
KNOWLEDGE OF PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. I believe the Buddhists
call this the Samma Sam-Buddha. I know that the Jains name it
KEVAL-GNYAN (or universal Knowledge) and the Hindus refer to it
as PARAMARTHA, and Parama-padat-mava -- beyond the condition of
Spirit --more "supreme" bordering on the Absolute. [ T. Glos
249, S.D. I 207-8 ]

==============================


"Fair" and "just" are like beauty - they are human terms that
we like to project outward into the universe even though there
is no logical reason and there is no feedback to tell us that
it is so. I have seen nothing "fair" about life. I see nothing
fair when I hear the evening news or read the papers about what
goes on in the world. To say that these unfortunate people
are just receiving back what they have handed out, while
possibly true, is a lot like saying it is God's will - neither
seems logical or satisfying to me. Of course, if one believes
that karma is a ruthless law of causality, and that we have
all have lots of past lives, then this does make sense, but
it is still very depressing to me. And I can't see where
anyone is 'learning' anything at all, which makes it even
more depressing.

DTB	As I see it, the depression resultant from contemplating an
exact and perfect LAW OF FAIRNESS AND JUSTICE TO ALL
[ KARMA ] -- THERE IS NO HORROR TO ME OF REALIZING I AM GETTING
BACK THE EXACT RESULTS OF WHAT I DID AND GAVE TO OTHERS.

I am sure that Nature can be trusted to be fair. Case in point:
It permits the most degenerate beings also to live -- but does
not recommend the kind of motives, life or actions they elect
(freely) to perform. As I see it, the LAW OF KARMA is even
handed, and like a racket in tennis (or a wall in squash-rackets)
it returns the ball exactly, dependent on the aim and purpose of
the player (gravity excluded in this analogy, please) .

Our desire to be forgiven is hardly an excuse to arrange things
in our favor, is it? How about some restitution to those we may
have harmed? Who takes care of them and their sorrows? God ?
No. I think we are responsible, and many are the unpaid debts we
have to meet and honor. But why should I worry about that? I
also agree with the old song: "There's no hiding place down
there." I do not thin k we are able to pit ourselves against the
power to good represented by evolution which is present in every
second of time, and phase of our many cycles. But, I also agree
that I cannot predetermine that and can only wait to find out --
so patience is to be developed. Eternity is a long time.

I have often wondered at the volunteering nd self-sacrifice
written in the Theosophical Literature, and wonder if that aspect
of "personal growth" would / does not answer your point
concerning "spiritual growth" and the emerging of the "SPIRITUAL
MAN" out of the selfish and personal being which we all are (very
much so -- at least in my case) ? [See your point just below.]

==============================

I have a hard time with your logic(?) that suggests that
spiritual man needs to evolve. What kind of spirituality
is it that needs evolution in matter? When I attend to
spirituality, I have no sense of need at all. While we
humans need our spiritual counterpart, I don't feel that
our spiritual counterpart needs us very much, or even
knows about us let alone cares.

I prefer the Buddhist view
that we simply accepted a false view of things, and this
ignorance started the evolutionary process, which is
not so much gaining knowledge or becoming spiritual as
it is of letting go of the original ignorance. The Buddhist
metaphor of cleaning the dust off a dirty mirror comes to
mind as a good analogy of the evolutionary process and goal.
DTB	I have to find some way of explaining "ignorance" and the
"Illusion" that it causes. To me the following emerge [ It
sounds a bit like Plato's "CAVE" ]
There is a VIEWER, and
there is LIGHT, whereby he/it can see.
There is a fog (or something, often designated as AVIDYA -- or
FALSE KNOWLEDGE) which destroys accurate and true vision of
subjects, objects and reason. HOW CAN THIS BE IDENTIFIED?
There is TRUTH and accurate perception. HOW CAN THIS BE
PERCEIVED OR FOUND?
If such vision is unavailable to me now, then the idea implies it
may have been mine once, and might be re-secured.
QUESTION: How is this to be done? What needs modification?
What kind of rules, laws, situations are worthwhile to grasp at
if they have stability and permanency? What needs modification:
Myself, Objects, Rules and Laws? A good reason to engage in this
kind of search? And, meanwhile we have live. How shall we
generally direct our lives?
ANSWERS ?
==================

DTB	I agree that this is hard. "spiritual": seems to imply
PERFECTION. Yet how does the MONAD become (out of the MONADIC
ESSENCE ? [S.D. I 619, 629, 630-634] What rules apply? H.P.B.
every now and then hints that the level of PERFECTION we envisage
today will be very minor compared to the level of SPIRITUAL
PERCEPTION n ad power that we will acquire at the end of this
Manvantara in the 7th Round and 7th Race. I wonder about that,
and since I have no basis for comparison, I am content to do what
work I can here and now. I am also quite content with the idea
that the MONAD is eternal. You may call this "faith" or a
"belief" but logically and metaphysically I think I understand
it, although words are difficult to find to express it.
Let me add: How best can I let the highest in me (SPIRIT -- or a
"RAY" THEREOF) manifest here and now? If purification is a
discipline I can impose on my Kamic nature that results in
generosity and harmlessness, then whom do I endanger? Whom do I
hurt by my attitude? I have not reached an answer to this, and
no doubt this attitude will be tested to see if it has any real
strength. But, I think it will be interesting to find out what
the results will be. I find the many statements made in THE
VOICE OF THE SILENCE very helpful in this regard.
Best wishes,
Dal
=====================

Jerry S.





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