Theos-Talk Archives (January 2001 Message tt00053)

Tuesday, January 09, 2001

Dear Gene:

Understood.

It seems plain to me that we two use some labels unclear to each
other. I have to guess at those you use. I use the 7-fold
theosophical ORIGINAL divisions -- not because they are original,
but because the ay are explained in detail.

If you are using Alice Bailey's labeling, then I really cannot
help, as I have no idea why she labeled things the way she did.
It certainly doe not seem to help us in the matter of planes of
action and states of consciousness.

You say I am clear, No. I would rather say Theosophy is clear,
and it has aeons of experience and research behind it. So I
would prefer to understand and use that. Also the common meaning
of the words we use so as to convey ideas to one-another.

Love, to me is all-encompassing, and brotherhood is the condition
of all beings -- sine they have the source of their existence in
the ONE. If so, then differences are referable to changes in
conditions -- which is what the 7 "principles" represent.

If we take it that there is in each of us ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that
is constantly operating, then those "differences" are events
stored in ONE MEMORY : OURS.

Of course being brothers to all else, we share on a universal
level everything, and the great illusion of our lives is to
believe we are actually and really separate from each other.

So it comes down to an adjustment of terms, labels and trying to
observe cause and effect and use a common way of expression.

I have also been reading with interest your exchanges with
others -- thank you for sharing them with me, it makes it very
interesting. From time to time may I make comments to you
concerning them?

All good wishes as always,

Dal

==========================


-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 11:23 AM
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?

Dear Dallas,

I'm sorry that it is not clear. Yours is. I is my
responsibility to be
clear one day. I'll keep working on it. I'm trying to reason it
all out by
myself as best I can and then go back and read the Secret
Doctrine, the
first four Stanzas.

It seems to me that there are the three aspects. The third
aspect is the
one that manifests the other two. The other two can not manifest
without
the third aspect. I see the first aspect as WILL, the second
aspect as
Compassion/Love/ Consciousness and the third aspect as
Intelligent
Activity(Mind). Intelligent Activity is like vibrations of all
frequencies.
It can be seen as an infinite sea of states of vibration through
which the
one consciousness can manifest as an infinite sea of states of
consciousness
vibration. This is spectrum, like light, and is organized in
octaves with
twelve notes per octave and seven tones per octave. It is a
wonderful
musical vastness. Integrated by love/compassion/Total
Consciousness it is
the Total Uncondtioned Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
mentioned at the
beginning of the Secret Doctrine.

Pick any octave. It will have seven tones or states. The
highest state is
the most synthetic and etheric and of the highest potential or
energy. The
lowest tone is the most expressive and most material and gross.
The lowest
tone and the next two tones are integrated at the fourth tone and
brought to
a synthetic point through to the fifth tone through the operation
of the the
willful seventh tone through it's operation, the sixth tone.


As the scheme is infinite each tone has seven subtones and they
have the
same relationship. So. Really. All is one. Each octave
corresponds to
any octave, or suboctave, or subsuboctave.

The highest state of any octave resonates with the Will aspect
and therefore
manifests the Will or receives the Will aspect. The second
highest state
resonates with the Love/Compassion aspect and there for resonates
with this
second aspect. The third state resonates withe the relationship
between the
first two aspects(and with the third aspect). This "creates" and
intelligent theosophic explanation of the three within the one
and the
oneness of the three within the mind. The mind is the rational
aspect of
the three aspects. The integrated mind is the expression of
Love/Compassion. The empty mind is the final synthetic effect of
the Will
Aspect and is the only manifestation of the Will Aspect that I
can think of.

I can't site anywhere in the Secret Doctrine wherein this is
stated. This
type of thinking is the effect that loving and studying the
Secret Doctrine
has had on me. "Me" in some sense, imperfect as "me" is, is, in
some sense,
part of the the expression of the Secret Doctrine.

I do think it is time to recognize my limitations and for me to
focus only
on the Logoic and Monadic planes and try to understand them
better before
going more downward into the more complicated sections of the
Secret
Doctrine. You know these well. The question I ask is: What is
the very
basis on which the Secret Doctrine was written? This basis just
must be
rational and just must be obvious. There comes a time when there
is a
glaring obviousness that serves to blind and veil rather than to
come gently
into the mind. I want to understand the three aspects of the
"ONE".

Also. We have had good communcation and it is very stimulating
for me and
gives me a very good sense of my limitations and the proper field
for
thought, in order to really be constructive, with the list. You
are the
person I will always want to consult, if I may, please, for
rational
compassionate anwsers to questions regarding HPB and her work.
However, I
want to be a help and not a drain. It may very well be that I
need to
become clearer and work some things out. I do not want to tax
you. Please
feel free to give short statements or know that I will not see
it as rude
would you prefer to smile and obsverse but not feel in anyway
obliged to
respond to my stuff outside of HPB and her lifework.

( ( ) )

Gene



----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 3:28 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?


> Jan 5th 2001
>
>
> Dear Gene:
>
> This excellent food for thought. I'll try and make this brief.
>
> -------------------
>
>
> The "planes" are conditions of matter. They are of course
linked
> one to the other, as that linkage makes for the wholeness of
the
> Universe and encompasses the many levels of awareness and
> perception (sensation) of a multitude of MONADS, each of which
is
> on its own particular level of progress towards the common goal
> of "Perfection."
>
> The CONSCIOUSNESS that passes through, uses or visits those
> planes and principles is SINGULAR. Thus the CONSCIOUSNESS or
> awareness of SINGULARITY is the uniting thread (or link) which
> enables us to perceive and use the qualities that are inherent
in
> each of those levels, or vehicles on the ONE SPIRITUAL
PRINCIPLE
> OF ALL -- ATMA.
>
> Of course, such memories (usually fragments and quite
> uncontrolled) seem to us to be separate consciousness
> experiences -- yet, the ONE THREAD is important because that is
> essentially our REAL SELF. ( Sutratma -- is the old Sanskrit
> designation -- as can be checked in the KEY .)
>
> Example: YOU (as CONSCIOUSNESS) have DREAMS, VISIONS, or go
> UNCONSCIOUS for a number of hours of "deep sleep" or drug
induced
> unconsciousness, as when operated on, or stunned, or in a coma.
>
> The CONSCIOUSNESS of each person does not CHANGE, even when the
> localities or planes are visited. The environment there can be
> seen to change -- Example: Desires, passions, yearnings,
> emotions are quite different as an environment from our WAKING
> experiences or our DREAM experiences.
>
> In TRANSACTIONS of the BLAVATSKY LODGE (COLLECTED WORKS --
> Blavatsky Vol. 10, pp. 252 -- 263 ) you will find that there
is
> an important set of definitions given in regard to the relation
> of the embodied "brain-mind" which WE use when WE are awake on
> this material, physical plane of ours. The contrast with the
> SPIRITUAL planes where the ATMA and the BUDDHI reside (as the
> MONAD) is quite marked.
>
> The problem is that our BRAIN-MIND (when it is "unconscious"
does
> not RECORD ALL the experiences of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS IN
US --
> which stems from the Monad (ATMA-BUDDHI) -- so we are largely
> unaware of how the inner REAL MAN (the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS) lives
> and acts on other planes, in ourselves, to which our LOWER
MANAS
> has not yet gained access, because it is still too gross.
>
> I admit this is somewhat difficult to grasp as we are embedded
is
> our LOWER MANAS now. That what seems to us here and now to be
> the appearance of different levels (planes) whereon the ONE
> CONSCIOUSNESS which is OURSELVES, also has the power to
operate.
>
> As I think I said earlier, our brain-mind or LOWER MANAS is
only
> a REFLECTION of the Higher Manas (or Buddhi-Manas) and it has
to
> win its independence and competence through the arduous process
> of self-purification. This is why the emphasis on morality and
> ethics is made. It really is not so difficult if we look at it
> as the simple factor of UNIVERSAL LAW.
>
> The LAWS exist. We can no more change them than we can alter
> fire into water (normally), or Earth into a huge bubble of gas.
> Everything is interrelated and hence the concept of mutual
> service and protection of the weak and the sick is deeply
> embedded in us as well as the idea of being a separate and free
> entity. A balance through understanding has to be established
> and the MIND (the Lower Mind -- Kama-Manas -- the selfish self
> that we usually are) has to agree to that as a working basis.
It
> then establishes its own laws that are in harmony (love) with
> those of the UNIVERSE of which it is an inalienable part.
>
> But innate to us, in our capacity to think and visualize the
> Universe as well as ourselves, we sense our FREEDOM and
> INDEPENDENCE. This is one of the factors. The other is that
we
> could not survive on any of the planes ("principles of the
> Universe and man") unless NATURE (or the UNIVERSE) was
friendly
> cooperative, and interactive with our CONSCIOUSNESS as an
> independent MIND. We have to reciprocate. Or else we are
> abusing the charitable and generous aspects of LIVING. If we
dwe
> ll in thought on the implications of this, we will soon find
out
> that any contravention of LAW brings on a corrective event --
> some kind of restriction such as we imposed on others in our
> search for selfish conditions of some kind.
>
> Not being isolated, and being IMMORTALS we are at last forced
to
> perceive the cooperative and service oriented (generous) nature
> of our environment. Obeying the LAW (Karma) is the only avenue
> we have to VOLUNTARILY adopt. This voluntary effort (to learn
> and to apply) is the condition in which all persons (like you
and
> I) are.
>
> I am not sure if I have said this well, but hopefully it is
> clear.
>
> Best wishes to you as always
>
> Dal.
>
>
> D T B
>
>
> ==========================================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 9:32 AM
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?
>
>
> Dear Dallas,
>
> I'm referring to the seven systemic planes as listed in the
> standard
> theosophic literature. I understand plane to mean a state of
> consciousness.
> The seven planes are part of the infinite spectrum the higher
the
> vibration
> the more spiritualward and the lower the vibration the more
> materialward.
>
> The entirely is the Light, the third aspect and appears as many
> yet, in
> reality, is one.
>
> ==============================
>
> DAL'S COMMENTS
>
>
> 1. Logoic NOT A PLANE BUT A MODERATING AGENT
> 2. Monadic NOT A PLANE BY A VIVIFYING AGENT
> 3. Atmic NOT A PLANE BUT A "RAY" OF UNIVERSAL SPIRIT
> 4. Buddhic NOT A PLANE BUT THE "AKASA" RECORD OF ETERNITY
> 5. Manasic(state of scientific wisdom) NOT A PLANE BUT THE
> ACTIVE DOER
> 6. Emotional(astral plane in the new use) NOT A PLANE BUT
> CHAOTIC DESIRE
> 7. Physical(the higher four subplanes of which are your and
HPB,s
> "astral"
> NOT A PLANE BUT A CONDITION OF MATTER WHERE "SEPARATENESS"
> HAS TO BE RESOLVED INTO COOPERATION.
>
> ===========================================
>
> The above are the seven metaphysical states of consciousness
> within the
> Cosmic Physical Plane, itself one of seven, with the third from
> the top
> being the plane of Brahma(neutral)
>
> -----------------------------------
>
>
> DTB I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL. HOW CAN THE METAPHYSICAL
> BE "WITHIN THE COSMIC PHYSICAL PLANE ?"
>
> ===============================
>
>
> The corresponding physical states are
>
> 1. first ether
> 2. second ether
> 3. third ether
> 4. fourth ether(plasma)
> 5. gaseous
> 6. liquid
> 7. solid
>
> ====================================
>
> DTB THESE DO NOT SEEM TO BE HPB'S DEFINITIONS NOR IS THERE ANY
> EXPLANATION GIVEN OF THEIR REASON FOR EXISTENCE.
>
> BUT THESE ARE NAMES AND TELL US NOTHING OF WHAT THEIR
RESPECTIVE
> FUNCTIONS ARE. WHAT DO THEY DO WHAT RESULTS FROM A KNOWLEDGE
OF
> THOSE? These are not HPB's DEFINITIONS.
>
> =============================================
>
> All is a continuum of one substance more material lower on the
> totem pole
> and more spiritual higher on the totem pole, all being relative
> to the
> observer.
>
> DTB CAN AN EXAMPLE OF THIS BE GIVEN ?
>
> =========================================
>
> To me this one substance is UNDERSTANDING or LIGHT. It is
> integrated from
> the many back into the one by COMPASSION and COOPERATION
amongst
> disciples.
> It is the mother aspect, intelligent activity, and that aspect
of
> the One
> that raises matter from the lower and grosser up into the more
> spiritual
> light of Atma-Buddhi-Manas when matter becomes subservient to
the
> second
> aspect of COMPASSION and later, WILL.
>
>
> DTB sorry but not clear at all.
>
> CUT
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>