Theos-Talk Archives (January 2001 Message tt00067)

Dear Dallas,

Yes. Theosophy is clear. You present theosophy clearly. I search for the
logical roots and the heart of the matter so as to help the student
re-construct the whole scheme from basic ir-reducable assumptions or, my
dream, absolutely no assumptions at all. Theosophical understanding is
central and when adding to it, something of value, one needs to be at least
as careful as when adding on to an incredibly beautiful home. I will
continue to love and respect HPB's and AAB's work and try to help rather
than hinder the process of understanding.

I find your comments very informative. I just want to dance this scholarly
dance in a constructive way, not persist in a position that I can not
present clearly, etc. I will meditate more and sacrifice yet more
un-essentails for the process, for the Work. I don't mind failing at all
when I'm doing my best.

Yours,
Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 4:45 AM
Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?


> Tuesday, January 09, 2001
>
> Dear Gene:
>
> Understood.
>
> It seems plain to me that we two use some labels unclear to each
> other. I have to guess at those you use. I use the 7-fold
> theosophical ORIGINAL divisions -- not because they are original,
> but because the ay are explained in detail.
>
> If you are using Alice Bailey's labeling, then I really cannot
> help, as I have no idea why she labeled things the way she did.
> It certainly doe not seem to help us in the matter of planes of
> action and states of consciousness.
>
> You say I am clear, No. I would rather say Theosophy is clear,
> and it has aeons of experience and research behind it. So I
> would prefer to understand and use that. Also the common meaning
> of the words we use so as to convey ideas to one-another.
>
> Love, to me is all-encompassing, and brotherhood is the condition
> of all beings -- sine they have the source of their existence in
> the ONE. If so, then differences are referable to changes in
> conditions -- which is what the 7 "principles" represent.
>
> If we take it that there is in each of us ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that
> is constantly operating, then those "differences" are events
> stored in ONE MEMORY : OURS.
>
> Of course being brothers to all else, we share on a universal
> level everything, and the great illusion of our lives is to
> believe we are actually and really separate from each other.
>
> So it comes down to an adjustment of terms, labels and trying to
> observe cause and effect and use a common way of expression.
>
> I have also been reading with interest your exchanges with
> others -- thank you for sharing them with me, it makes it very
> interesting. From time to time may I make comments to you
> concerning them?
>
> All good wishes as always,
>
> Dal
>
> ==========================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 11:23 AM
> To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?
>
> Dear Dallas,
>
> I'm sorry that it is not clear. Yours is. I is my
> responsibility to be
> clear one day. I'll keep working on it. I'm trying to reason it
> all out by
> myself as best I can and then go back and read the Secret
> Doctrine, the
> first four Stanzas.
>
> It seems to me that there are the three aspects. The third
> aspect is the
> one that manifests the other two. The other two can not manifest
> without
> the third aspect. I see the first aspect as WILL, the second
> aspect as
> Compassion/Love/ Consciousness and the third aspect as
> Intelligent
> Activity(Mind). Intelligent Activity is like vibrations of all
> frequencies.
> It can be seen as an infinite sea of states of vibration through
> which the
> one consciousness can manifest as an infinite sea of states of
> consciousness
> vibration. This is spectrum, like light, and is organized in
> octaves with
> twelve notes per octave and seven tones per octave. It is a
> wonderful
> musical vastness. Integrated by love/compassion/Total
> Consciousness it is
> the Total Uncondtioned Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
> mentioned at the
> beginning of the Secret Doctrine.
>
> Pick any octave. It will have seven tones or states. The
> highest state is
> the most synthetic and etheric and of the highest potential or
> energy. The
> lowest tone is the most expressive and most material and gross.
> The lowest
> tone and the next two tones are integrated at the fourth tone and
> brought to
> a synthetic point through to the fifth tone through the operation
> of the the
> willful seventh tone through it's operation, the sixth tone.
>
>
> As the scheme is infinite each tone has seven subtones and they
> have the
> same relationship. So. Really. All is one. Each octave
> corresponds to
> any octave, or suboctave, or subsuboctave.
>
> The highest state of any octave resonates with the Will aspect
> and therefore
> manifests the Will or receives the Will aspect. The second
> highest state
> resonates with the Love/Compassion aspect and there for resonates
> with this
> second aspect. The third state resonates withe the relationship
> between the
> first two aspects(and with the third aspect). This "creates" and
> intelligent theosophic explanation of the three within the one
> and the
> oneness of the three within the mind. The mind is the rational
> aspect of
> the three aspects. The integrated mind is the expression of
> Love/Compassion. The empty mind is the final synthetic effect of
> the Will
> Aspect and is the only manifestation of the Will Aspect that I
> can think of.
>
> I can't site anywhere in the Secret Doctrine wherein this is
> stated. This
> type of thinking is the effect that loving and studying the
> Secret Doctrine
> has had on me. "Me" in some sense, imperfect as "me" is, is, in
> some sense,
> part of the the expression of the Secret Doctrine.
>
> I do think it is time to recognize my limitations and for me to
> focus only
> on the Logoic and Monadic planes and try to understand them
> better before
> going more downward into the more complicated sections of the
> Secret
> Doctrine. You know these well. The question I ask is: What is
> the very
> basis on which the Secret Doctrine was written? This basis just
> must be
> rational and just must be obvious. There comes a time when there
> is a
> glaring obviousness that serves to blind and veil rather than to
> come gently
> into the mind. I want to understand the three aspects of the
> "ONE".
>
> Also. We have had good communcation and it is very stimulating
> for me and
> gives me a very good sense of my limitations and the proper field
> for
> thought, in order to really be constructive, with the list. You
> are the
> person I will always want to consult, if I may, please, for
> rational
> compassionate anwsers to questions regarding HPB and her work.
> However, I
> want to be a help and not a drain. It may very well be that I
> need to
> become clearer and work some things out. I do not want to tax
> you. Please
> feel free to give short statements or know that I will not see
> it as rude
> would you prefer to smile and obsverse but not feel in anyway
> obliged to
> respond to my stuff outside of HPB and her lifework.
>
> ( ( ) )
>
> Gene
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
> To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 3:28 PM
> Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?
>
>
> > Jan 5th 2001
> >
> >
> > Dear Gene:
> >
> > This excellent food for thought. I'll try and make this brief.
> >
> > -------------------
> >
> >
> > The "planes" are conditions of matter. They are of course
> linked
> > one to the other, as that linkage makes for the wholeness of
> the
> > Universe and encompasses the many levels of awareness and
> > perception (sensation) of a multitude of MONADS, each of which
> is
> > on its own particular level of progress towards the common goal
> > of "Perfection."
> >
> > The CONSCIOUSNESS that passes through, uses or visits those
> > planes and principles is SINGULAR. Thus the CONSCIOUSNESS or
> > awareness of SINGULARITY is the uniting thread (or link) which
> > enables us to perceive and use the qualities that are inherent
> in
> > each of those levels, or vehicles on the ONE SPIRITUAL
> PRINCIPLE
> > OF ALL -- ATMA.
> >
> > Of course, such memories (usually fragments and quite
> > uncontrolled) seem to us to be separate consciousness
> > experiences -- yet, the ONE THREAD is important because that is
> > essentially our REAL SELF. ( Sutratma -- is the old Sanskrit
> > designation -- as can be checked in the KEY .)
> >
> > Example: YOU (as CONSCIOUSNESS) have DREAMS, VISIONS, or go
> > UNCONSCIOUS for a number of hours of "deep sleep" or drug
> induced
> > unconsciousness, as when operated on, or stunned, or in a coma.
> >
> > The CONSCIOUSNESS of each person does not CHANGE, even when the
> > localities or planes are visited. The environment there can be
> > seen to change -- Example: Desires, passions, yearnings,
> > emotions are quite different as an environment from our WAKING
> > experiences or our DREAM experiences.
> >
> > In TRANSACTIONS of the BLAVATSKY LODGE (COLLECTED WORKS --
> > Blavatsky Vol. 10, pp. 252 -- 263 ) you will find that there
> is
> > an important set of definitions given in regard to the relation
> > of the embodied "brain-mind" which WE use when WE are awake on
> > this material, physical plane of ours. The contrast with the
> > SPIRITUAL planes where the ATMA and the BUDDHI reside (as the
> > MONAD) is quite marked.
> >
> > The problem is that our BRAIN-MIND (when it is "unconscious"
> does
> > not RECORD ALL the experiences of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS IN
> US --
> > which stems from the Monad (ATMA-BUDDHI) -- so we are largely
> > unaware of how the inner REAL MAN (the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS) lives
> > and acts on other planes, in ourselves, to which our LOWER
> MANAS
> > has not yet gained access, because it is still too gross.
> >
> > I admit this is somewhat difficult to grasp as we are embedded
> is
> > our LOWER MANAS now. That what seems to us here and now to be
> > the appearance of different levels (planes) whereon the ONE
> > CONSCIOUSNESS which is OURSELVES, also has the power to
> operate.
> >
> > As I think I said earlier, our brain-mind or LOWER MANAS is
> only
> > a REFLECTION of the Higher Manas (or Buddhi-Manas) and it has
> to
> > win its independence and competence through the arduous process
> > of self-purification. This is why the emphasis on morality and
> > ethics is made. It really is not so difficult if we look at it
> > as the simple factor of UNIVERSAL LAW.
> >
> > The LAWS exist. We can no more change them than we can alter
> > fire into water (normally), or Earth into a huge bubble of gas.
> > Everything is interrelated and hence the concept of mutual
> > service and protection of the weak and the sick is deeply
> > embedded in us as well as the idea of being a separate and free
> > entity. A balance through understanding has to be established
> > and the MIND (the Lower Mind -- Kama-Manas -- the selfish self
> > that we usually are) has to agree to that as a working basis.
> It
> > then establishes its own laws that are in harmony (love) with
> > those of the UNIVERSE of which it is an inalienable part.
> >
> > But innate to us, in our capacity to think and visualize the
> > Universe as well as ourselves, we sense our FREEDOM and
> > INDEPENDENCE. This is one of the factors. The other is that
> we
> > could not survive on any of the planes ("principles of the
> > Universe and man") unless NATURE (or the UNIVERSE) was
> friendly
> > cooperative, and interactive with our CONSCIOUSNESS as an
> > independent MIND. We have to reciprocate. Or else we are
> > abusing the charitable and generous aspects of LIVING. If we
> dwe
> > ll in thought on the implications of this, we will soon find
> out
> > that any contravention of LAW brings on a corrective event --
> > some kind of restriction such as we imposed on others in our
> > search for selfish conditions of some kind.
> >
> > Not being isolated, and being IMMORTALS we are at last forced
> to
> > perceive the cooperative and service oriented (generous) nature
> > of our environment. Obeying the LAW (Karma) is the only avenue
> > we have to VOLUNTARILY adopt. This voluntary effort (to learn
> > and to apply) is the condition in which all persons (like you
> and
> > I) are.
> >
> > I am not sure if I have said this well, but hopefully it is
> > clear.
> >
> > Best wishes to you as always
> >
> > Dal.
> >
> >
> > D T B
> >
> >
> > ==========================================
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 9:32 AM
> > To: theos-talk@egroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?
> >
> >
> > Dear Dallas,
> >
> > I'm referring to the seven systemic planes as listed in the
> > standard
> > theosophic literature. I understand plane to mean a state of
> > consciousness.
> > The seven planes are part of the infinite spectrum the higher
> the
> > vibration
> > the more spiritualward and the lower the vibration the more
> > materialward.
> >
> > The entirely is the Light, the third aspect and appears as many
> > yet, in
> > reality, is one.
> >
> > ==============================
> >
> > DAL'S COMMENTS
> >
> >
> > 1. Logoic NOT A PLANE BUT A MODERATING AGENT
> > 2. Monadic NOT A PLANE BY A VIVIFYING AGENT
> > 3. Atmic NOT A PLANE BUT A "RAY" OF UNIVERSAL SPIRIT
> > 4. Buddhic NOT A PLANE BUT THE "AKASA" RECORD OF ETERNITY
> > 5. Manasic(state of scientific wisdom) NOT A PLANE BUT THE
> > ACTIVE DOER
> > 6. Emotional(astral plane in the new use) NOT A PLANE BUT
> > CHAOTIC DESIRE
> > 7. Physical(the higher four subplanes of which are your and
> HPB,s
> > "astral"
> > NOT A PLANE BUT A CONDITION OF MATTER WHERE "SEPARATENESS"
> > HAS TO BE RESOLVED INTO COOPERATION.
> >
> > ===========================================
> >
> > The above are the seven metaphysical states of consciousness
> > within the
> > Cosmic Physical Plane, itself one of seven, with the third from
> > the top
> > being the plane of Brahma(neutral)
> >
> > -----------------------------------
> >
> >
> > DTB I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL. HOW CAN THE METAPHYSICAL
> > BE "WITHIN THE COSMIC PHYSICAL PLANE ?"
> >
> > ===============================
> >
> >
> > The corresponding physical states are
> >
> > 1. first ether
> > 2. second ether
> > 3. third ether
> > 4. fourth ether(plasma)
> > 5. gaseous
> > 6. liquid
> > 7. solid
> >
> > ====================================
> >
> > DTB THESE DO NOT SEEM TO BE HPB'S DEFINITIONS NOR IS THERE ANY
> > EXPLANATION GIVEN OF THEIR REASON FOR EXISTENCE.
> >
> > BUT THESE ARE NAMES AND TELL US NOTHING OF WHAT THEIR
> RESPECTIVE
> > FUNCTIONS ARE. WHAT DO THEY DO WHAT RESULTS FROM A KNOWLEDGE
> OF
> > THOSE? These are not HPB's DEFINITIONS.
> >
> > =============================================
> >
> > All is a continuum of one substance more material lower on the
> > totem pole
> > and more spiritual higher on the totem pole, all being relative
> > to the
> > observer.
> >
> > DTB CAN AN EXAMPLE OF THIS BE GIVEN ?
> >
> > =========================================
> >
> > To me this one substance is UNDERSTANDING or LIGHT. It is
> > integrated from
> > the many back into the one by COMPASSION and COOPERATION
> amongst
> > disciples.
> > It is the mother aspect, intelligent activity, and that aspect
> of
> > the One
> > that raises matter from the lower and grosser up into the more
> > spiritual
> > light of Atma-Buddhi-Manas when matter becomes subservient to
> the
> > second
> > aspect of COMPASSION and later, WILL.
> >
> >
> > DTB sorry but not clear at all.
> >
> > CUT
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Dal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>