Theos-Talk Archives (November 2000 Message tt00198)

Thankyou,

I think you are correct.

There is the question: Why is there something rather than nothing?

It seems that the real question might be:
Why does there seem to be something rather than nothing?

I have been working with the hypothesis that it is all nothing and that
Total Unconditioned Consciousness knows this. This nothing, it would seem,
is one nothing, if we were to count it.

Then there is this dilemna: It is nothing but it is one nothing. This sets
up an oscillation in the mind or perhaps this sets up the basic oscillation
that is the mind. This oscillation, vibration, sound, light, etc. then
manifests the nothing and it's oneness alternately, so one, essentially
nothing at all, is oscillating, employing time and space to perceive "self",
etc.

ALL falls into various frequencies of oscillation and ALL rises again into
the higher frequencies and there is the chance of transcendending the whole
oscillating system(through integration of the system, i.e. through the love
of the heart)(this takes profound will) and then getting a chance to rest
deeply before getting drawn into the whole system once again, falling,
becoming involved, and thinking one's way back out again. It is like trying
to solve the liar's paradox or any self-referencing statement with the mind
alone.

"This statement is false."

If true it is false. If false its is true.

True, false, true, false. This causes oscillation in the mind. No
mind-like machine can be built that can resolve this oscillation.

A meaningful statement can be true or false or contingent. This statement
seems meaningful but is oscillating and Spencer-Brown points out that it is
"imaginary" and analogous to the mathematically meaningful statement:

x = -1/x

x^2 = the square root of -1

x = i (oscillating plus one, minus one)

This brings time into the system wherein before the system was logical and
"outside" or transcendent to time.

Therefore, trying to follow Spencer-Brown, a meaningful statement can be
true, false, contingent or. . . . . TA DA! . . . . Imaginary!( watch out
for the potential semantic trap here)

This is where we can all put our heads and hearts together and dismiss this
as a waste- of- time- to- think- about or hopefully, for my little ego, the
key to solving the mysteries of the universe.

If there were only one state of consciousness then there would be nothing
else. But, whenever there are at least two different states of
consciousness then there are three and then zillionions.(and you thought
rabbits were. . .) Whenever the heart is unable to re-integrate the mind
then we fall. When the heart and love can re-integrate the mind, we rise
again into the bossum of the ALL-MIGHTY ONE. One learns ever-more through
periodically suffering this.

I can only write this in relation to you.



Gene



----- Original Message -----
From: "Compiler" <compiler@wisdomworld.org>
To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Point of view- THIS is a Classic example


> Eugene,
>
> Maybe these thoughts that you generated in me by your ideas might be
> useful, if valid in any way, according to the Theosophical teachings, for
> those more knowledgeable to assist us all with:
>
> It would seem that "substance" is the other side of the great
unconditioned
> "All" when it is stirred up, as in vibrational, by the force of thinking,
> so that relationships can then be experienced through all the phenomea
> (which is this substance in motion) on all of the many "conditioned"
planes
> of existence that come into existence, are experienced through, and then
> fade away leaving each thinker with the "experience" gained for the
> particular cycle, until the next one begins.
>
> Compiler
> -------
>
> Eugene Carpenter wrote:
>
> > If Total Unconditioned Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
> >
> > is all there is,
> >
> > then what is substance?
> >
> > Could it be that substance is the under-standing of the above?
> >
> > Wouldn't under-standing the above take time and space?
> >
> > Are we not Total Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
> >
> > gradually understanding who we are?
> >
> > Gene
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sherab Dorje" <sherab@wenet.net>
> > To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:46 PM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: Point of view- THIS is a Classic example
> >
> > > There is a one to one correspondence with your quote below,
> > > > that "The Universe is Embodied Consciousness" --
> > > > on every possible plane.
> > > and the quote that I posted earlier in this discussion that is
> > > attributed to Lord Maitreya,
> > > "Nothing exists apart from the Mind,
> > > Awareness eventually comes to realize this."
> > >
> > > One could also say in equal truth, Consciousness is the Universe or
> > > that the Universe is Conscious. Either way, there is no getting
> > > around the truth that all is in Mind. Awareness is That, embodied or
> > > not. It is the non-recognition of that intrinsic awareness that
> > > brings about the embodiment.
> > >
> > > As to whether this is helpful to readers or not would be hard to
> > > determine. If there is some juice in a thread then will get legs and
> > > have some participation. If one is drawn to this forum then they are
> > > drawn to the Mysteries, that much we have in common. To invoke the
> > > Mysteries is to evoke the metaphysical dyanmic between the student
> > > and the teacher, the disciple and the guru, the chela and the chohan,
> > > the novice and the lama, in other words to teach and to learn.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your comments. There are many discussions taking place
> > > here but not all that I can participate in.
> > >
> > > Sherab
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Compiler <compiler@w...> wrote:
> > > > Sherab,
> > > >
> > > > This may or may not be helpful to some readers:
> > > >
> > > > As I read all of the stimulating scientific discussions here, and
> > > not
> > > > personally having a scientific or scholarly bent, just being a
> > > student who
> > > > is a theosophic generalist, so to say, in trying to understand it
> > > all, I
> > > > keep clearly in the front of my mind at all times the fundamental
> > > > Theosophic statement, assuming that it is true, until proven
> > > otherwise,
> > > > that "The Universe is Embodied Consciousness" -- on every possible
> > > plane.
> > > >
> > > > Compiler
> > > > -------
> > > >
> > > > Sherab Dorje wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Discussion indeed! Thank you for your stimulating questions and
> > > > > thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > First, some thoughts about Sham's questions after sleeping on
> > > them.
> > > > > Good questions require good answers and having just read LMH's
> > > > > posting on this subject that needs sometime to digest.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that there is no way to separate the Mind from the
> > > awareness of
> > > > > phenomena what can we understand about these differing points of
> > > > > view. Western science regards consciousness as a phenomena giving
> > > it
> > > > > substantial form, where as, spiritually regarded, mind appears as
> > > an
> > > > > infinitely empty container in which all phenomena manifest and has
> > > > > certain inherent qualities.
> > > > >
> > > > > There appears to be no problem with regarding inter-molecular
> > > space
> > > > > as a kind of primordial substance. What appears to awareness, be
> > > that
> > > > > iron or emptyness is really a matter of the state of awareness, or
> > > > > state of mind. Substance appears as a state of consciousness. In
> > > that
> > > > > as consciousness unfolds or the state of mind changes, as in
> > > death,
> > > > > then what follows is a change in the appearance of phenomena or
> > > > > substance. As human beings, we are subjects within certain realms
> > > > > where substances conform to their karmic causes. I believe that
> > > this
> > > > > is what HPB refers to as the limits beyond which we can go not. If
> > > > > there is any way to characterize HPB's work, it is that she is
> > > > > showing us the naked reality of our consciousness and asking us to
> > > > > examine That.
> > > > >
> > > > > This does not preclude or exclude the consciousness of beings that
> > > > > exist at other energetic frequencies or interpenetrating planes of
> > > > > being and that are subject to their corresponding realms that are
> > > > > just as substantial as iron is in our realm though those
> > > substances
> > > > > may appear to us as space in our realm. So nothing exists apart
> > > from
> > > > > the mind, regardless of whatever state the mind is in.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another approach we may take to analyze this is to regard
> > > phenomena
> > > > > as effect produced by a cause. Force, must be the sensible
> > > > > appearance of this process, the movement of energetic flux, of
> > > > > manifestation or pralaya due to cause. Phenomena appears due to
> > > cause
> > > > > and when the cause is removed the phenomena disappears without a
> > > > > trace. This also applies to the mind and its state. Different
> > > states
> > > > > of Mind come about because of causes so it follows that in other
> > > > > states of Mind different phenomena and substance will arise in
> > > > > awareness.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is not my intent to flippantly reduce the wealth of knowledge
> > > > > revealed by science to mere mental clutter, that would be
> > > > > disrespectful nor is it my intent to reduce spiritual views of
> > > Mind
> > > > > to an unregardable eternalist view. Science is an ego, an "I" that
> > > > > wants to always box things in or find smaller and smaller
> > > > > compartments of usefully quantifiable corresponding information.
> > > It
> > > > > does this by generating them with concepts, mental constructs.
> > > When
> > > > > one box of concept is complete another larger box is under
> > > > > development somewhere else. The question, is this, are we just
> > > > > creating more causes for a larger universe or universes? And if
> > > so,
> > > > > then we must examine the motivation for producing these causes.
> > > That
> > > > > line of questioning ultimately leads back to the purpose of being
> > > > > human. This, I regard, as the highest Theosophical duty.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is a real pleasure to take part in such a stimulating
> > > > > converstation. More on this thread later.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sherab
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>