Theos-Talk Archives (November 2000 Message tt00196)

Sherab,

You are very mistaken in your analysis. I responded to Eugene's comments
(which are below). I did not "quote" or "cut and paste" anything, or
anyone, from any publication, but simply composed, as usual, off the top my
own thoughts and understanding, and in my own words, of what I think
Theosophy teaches on the subject that I expressed below, and that you
responded to.

Where did I offend you, whose comments are below Eugene's, or anyone? I'm
simply trying to add to the discussion and the food for thought to be
considered, as well as to see if I am somewhat wrong in my understanding of
the teachngs -- openly asking for more knowledgeable students to also
comment, and correct me where I am wrong.

Compiler
-------

Sherab Dorje wrote:

> Who is it that hides behind the name "Compiler" and what are the
> motives behind these comments?
>
> A lot of people in this forum are fond of cutting and pasting
> quotations for various theosophic sources frequently without comment
> as to their personal understanding of the same. These quotes often
> times seem to me hurled as if they were some kind of weapon at
> someone that causes a thought disturbance in the orthodoxy of the
> society.
>
> Mipham Rinpoche advises in the "Precious Knife of Certainty" to rely
> on the meaning not the words, rely on the definitive meanings not the
> provisinal meanings.
>
> It would therefore seem appropriate in this forum to include the
> specific reference when citing various quotations and some commentary
> of meaning from the posting party.
>
> Sherab
>
> --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Compiler <compiler@w...> wrote:
> > Eugene,
> >
> > Maybe these thoughts that you generated in me by your ideas might be
> > useful, if valid in any way, according to the Theosophical
> teachings, for
> > those more knowledgeable to assist us all with:
> >
> > It would seem that "substance" is the other side of the great
> unconditioned
> > "All" when it is stirred up, as in vibrational, by the force of
> thinking,
> > so that relationships can then be experienced through all the
> phenomea
> > (which is this substance in motion) on all of the
> many "conditioned" planes
> > of existence that come into existence, are experienced through, and
> then
> > fade away leaving each thinker with the "experience" gained for the
> > particular cycle, until the next one begins.
> >
> > Compiler
> > -------
> >
> > Eugene Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > > If Total Unconditioned Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
> > >
> > > is all there is,
> > >
> > > then what is substance?
> > >
> > > Could it be that substance is the under-standing of the above?
> > >
> > > Wouldn't under-standing the above take time and space?
> > >
> > > Are we not Total Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
> > >
> > > gradually understanding who we are?
> > >
> > > Gene
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Sherab Dorje" <sherab@w...>
> > > To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:46 PM
> > > Subject: Theos-World Re: Point of view- THIS is a Classic example
> > >
> > > > There is a one to one correspondence with your quote below,
> > > > > that "The Universe is Embodied Consciousness" --
> > > > > on every possible plane.
> > > > and the quote that I posted earlier in this discussion that is
> > > > attributed to Lord Maitreya,
> > > > "Nothing exists apart from the Mind,
> > > > Awareness eventually comes to realize this."
> > > >
> > > > One could also say in equal truth, Consciousness is the
> Universe or
> > > > that the Universe is Conscious. Either way, there is no getting
> > > > around the truth that all is in Mind. Awareness is That,
> embodied or
> > > > not. It is the non-recognition of that intrinsic awareness that
> > > > brings about the embodiment.
> > > >
> > > > As to whether this is helpful to readers or not would be hard to
> > > > determine. If there is some juice in a thread then will get
> legs and
> > > > have some participation. If one is drawn to this forum then
> they are
> > > > drawn to the Mysteries, that much we have in common. To invoke
> the
> > > > Mysteries is to evoke the metaphysical dyanmic between the
> student
> > > > and the teacher, the disciple and the guru, the chela and the
> chohan,
> > > > the novice and the lama, in other words to teach and to learn.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your comments. There are many discussions taking
> place
> > > > here but not all that I can participate in.
> > > >
> > > > Sherab
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Compiler <compiler@w...> wrote:
> > > > > Sherab,
> > > > >
> > > > > This may or may not be helpful to some readers:
> > > > >
> > > > > As I read all of the stimulating scientific discussions here,
> and
> > > > not
> > > > > personally having a scientific or scholarly bent, just being a
> > > > student who
> > > > > is a theosophic generalist, so to say, in trying to
> understand it
> > > > all, I
> > > > > keep clearly in the front of my mind at all times the
> fundamental
> > > > > Theosophic statement, assuming that it is true, until proven
> > > > otherwise,
> > > > > that "The Universe is Embodied Consciousness" -- on every
> possible
> > > > plane.
> > > > >
> > > > > Compiler
> > > > > -------
> > > > >
> > > > > Sherab Dorje wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Discussion indeed! Thank you for your stimulating questions
> and
> > > > > > thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First, some thoughts about Sham's questions after sleeping
> on
> > > > them.
> > > > > > Good questions require good answers and having just read
> LMH's
> > > > > > posting on this subject that needs sometime to digest.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Given that there is no way to separate the Mind from the
> > > > awareness of
> > > > > > phenomena what can we understand about these differing
> points of
> > > > > > view. Western science regards consciousness as a phenomena
> giving
> > > > it
> > > > > > substantial form, where as, spiritually regarded, mind
> appears as
> > > > an
> > > > > > infinitely empty container in which all phenomena manifest
> and has
> > > > > > certain inherent qualities.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There appears to be no problem with regarding inter-
> molecular
> > > > space
> > > > > > as a kind of primordial substance. What appears to
> awareness, be
> > > > that
> > > > > > iron or emptyness is really a matter of the state of
> awareness, or
> > > > > > state of mind. Substance appears as a state of
> consciousness. In
> > > > that
> > > > > > as consciousness unfolds or the state of mind changes, as in
> > > > death,
> > > > > > then what follows is a change in the appearance of
> phenomena or
> > > > > > substance. As human beings, we are subjects within certain
> realms
> > > > > > where substances conform to their karmic causes. I believe
> that
> > > > this
> > > > > > is what HPB refers to as the limits beyond which we can go
> not. If
> > > > > > there is any way to characterize HPB's work, it is that she
> is
> > > > > > showing us the naked reality of our consciousness and
> asking us to
> > > > > > examine That.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This does not preclude or exclude the consciousness of
> beings that
> > > > > > exist at other energetic frequencies or interpenetrating
> planes of
> > > > > > being and that are subject to their corresponding realms
> that are
> > > > > > just as substantial as iron is in our realm though those
> > > > substances
> > > > > > may appear to us as space in our realm. So nothing exists
> apart
> > > > from
> > > > > > the mind, regardless of whatever state the mind is in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another approach we may take to analyze this is to regard
> > > > phenomena
> > > > > > as effect produced by a cause. Force, must be the sensible
> > > > > > appearance of this process, the movement of energetic flux,
> of
> > > > > > manifestation or pralaya due to cause. Phenomena appears
> due to
> > > > cause
> > > > > > and when the cause is removed the phenomena disappears
> without a
> > > > > > trace. This also applies to the mind and its state.
> Different
> > > > states
> > > > > > of Mind come about because of causes so it follows that in
> other
> > > > > > states of Mind different phenomena and substance will arise
> in
> > > > > > awareness.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is not my intent to flippantly reduce the wealth of
> knowledge
> > > > > > revealed by science to mere mental clutter, that would be
> > > > > > disrespectful nor is it my intent to reduce spiritual views
> of
> > > > Mind
> > > > > > to an unregardable eternalist view. Science is an ego,
> an "I" that
> > > > > > wants to always box things in or find smaller and smaller
> > > > > > compartments of usefully quantifiable corresponding
> information.
> > > > It
> > > > > > does this by generating them with concepts, mental
> constructs.
> > > > When
> > > > > > one box of concept is complete another larger box is under
> > > > > > development somewhere else. The question, is this, are we
> just
> > > > > > creating more causes for a larger universe or universes?
> And if
> > > > so,
> > > > > > then we must examine the motivation for producing these
> causes.
> > > > That
> > > > > > line of questioning ultimately leads back to the purpose of
> being
> > > > > > human. This, I regard, as the highest Theosophical duty.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is a real pleasure to take part in such a stimulating
> > > > > > converstation. More on this thread later.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sherab
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>