Theos-Talk Archives (March 2000 Message tt00020)

> From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
> To: <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:51 PM
> Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS

I have noticed that if I read a book and put it aside for years, and then
pick it up again, lots of times I have forgotten much of what is in it, and
the experience that I get, and the reading that I do gives me a lot of
information. When I go back to it, many times in re-reading the original
book, I find a lot that I didn't remember from the first time, and lots of
the material fits in like a pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, and means a lot more
the second or third time around.

Then there are new books and magazines coming out all the time, and
sometimes I just put the old books on the shelf, just trying to keep up with
the new stuff. Perhaps that is what is going on here.

> > DTB understood, however the usual use of the word "SHELL"
> > implies (to me) that condition is of a non-self-conscious medium
> > usually in a trance.

Terminology, and intrepetation, I suppose.

> > HPB as far as I can ascertain was an ADEPT and always was in
> > control.  She "loaned" her body to other Adepts.  But was not
> > unconscious of the event or of the use.  I guess I am splitting
> > hairs, and regret annoying you.  But it is always my practice to
> > be as explicit as possible in comminuting so as to avoid any such
> > time waste as this represents to both of us.
> > ----------------------------------------

> Earlier in the last century, around 1918, the Communists killed
> > the Tzar and
> > his family. One of the daughters, not at the end of her Karma,
> > found the
> > body of a Polish girl, a few years older than her, who had tried
> > to commit
> > suicide, and the body was lying in a hospital bed, in a coma.
> > When this body
> > woke up, it had the memories of the Russian
> > Princess, -Anastasia-. People
> > who had known the Russian, said that the awakened girl had all
> > the memories
> > and mannerisms of Anastasia. DNA tests a few years ago proved
> > that she was
> > no physical relation to the Royal Families of Europe.
> >
> > DTB Theosophy offers the possibility that the body of the
> > unconscious person was left vacant and by some rule of Karma it
> > could be use by the intelligence of the princess.  That is only a
> > guess, as it might mean that the "astral and personal nature did
> > not have to go through Devachan, but because it had some ancient
> > affinity for the personality of the now unconscious body of the
> > failed suicide,  these two events permitted such a transfer.  Did
> > the personality of the Polish girl ever surface again?  Did
> > anyone maintain a study of the Polish girl to see if this now
> > "borrowed body" continued to be used by "Anastasia?"  Or does
> > that fade away and no history was maintained ?  It would be
> > interesting to see if there are any records of that aspect.  Do
> > you know any more of that?

The end was only in the last couple of years. I would have thought that you
would recall that, but I guess that if you had no interest in these kinds of
things, you would not follow it.

The woman maintained the identity of the Russian girl to the end of her
life. When DNA blood typing became available, scientists took blood from
Anastasia, her polish relatives, and the royal family of England, since
Queen Victoria of England was a blood relative of the Russian royal family.
They compared all the DNA evidence, and found that there was no possibility
that the physical body was in any way related to the English and Russian
royal families. The memories of the Polish girl never reappeared, and the
Russian memories were maintained till the death of the body.

There have been books, magazine articles, one or more Movies, and TV
programs on that theme. I don't have any of them, and don't think any of
them mentioned the Tulku phenomena, which seems to happen in nature from
time to time, but is labeled as something else, if it is commented on at
all. There has been some comment about someone having an accident, or
getting sick and going into a coma, and when they wake up, not knowing
relatives, and having to learn about relationships all over, and having a
decidedly different life goals, personal psychology and moods. These are
usually taken to be just a result of the sickness or accident, and the new
personality inside usually has sense enough to not mention the impossible
memories, if they remember them at all.

> > I do not think of anything that happens "accidentally" as the
> > whole of Nature runs under very definite laws.  to us it may seem
> > to be extraordinary, but there must be some logical reason for
> > events to occur  -- even such a strange one as this.  I am sure
> > you are aware of the case of Mr. Judge ?  But that is even
> > stranger as reported.  See LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME p. 249 > > ULT
Edition:  IN A BORROWED BODY.

No, I was not aware of something with Mr. Judge. I did notice what seemed to
me a definite change of personality from the time he was working with HPB,
and later when he had a difference with Mr. Olcott, but I didn't attach any
significance to it till I saw your comment above.

It had caused me to wonder if he had had a nervous breakdown, or something
associated with the illness that took his life, -he seemed too young to
die--.

I just got the Sunrise issues of his life, HPB, and Ms. Tingley. In looking
through them, I noticed some pictures of WQJ, and in some of them he seems
to be assured of himself, and in command, in others he seems to have a
rather haunted look in his expression, and perhaps hunched over a bit. Of
course, I have a slight spinal deformity, and am a little hunched over too.
Perhaps some of the photos were taken after his illness, or whatever it is
you were referring to.  I will pay closer attention to that issue when I
read it. I take it then, that this is detailed in LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED
ME?

> > Her Master re-animated her, and they formed a "club" to use her,
> > much in the
> > manner of a TULKU, except that  one of them occupied the body all
> > the time.
> > They took turns. There were 7 Masters in the group.
> >
> > DTB THAT IS NEWS TO ME.  I never read this and wonder if you
> > could direct me to the source of this statement.
> > =============================

As I mentioned at the beginning of this (above), sometimes I have books on
the shelves for years, and forget what I read years ago. I sort of get the
sense that you have some animosity toward Mr. Olcott, and so don't read his
material all that much, after the initial reading.

Look in OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, Chapter 5, SPIRITUALISM.
In my copy Chapter 5 starts on page 66, and ends on page 81. On page 72,
they meet a Mr. E. Gerry Brown. On page 74, Olcott writes:

    "I wrote every word of this circular myself, alone correcting the
printer's proofs, and paid for the printing. That is to say, nobody dictated
a word that I should say, nor interpolated any words or sentences, nor
                p. 75
controlled my action in any visible way. I wrote it to carry out the
expressed wishes of the Masters that we-- HPB and I-- should help the Editor
of the SCIENTIST at what was to him, a difficult crisis, and used my best
judgement as to the language most suitable for the purpose. When the
circular was in type at the printer's and I had corrected the proofs, and
changed the arrangement of the matter into its final paragraphs, I enquired
of HPB (by letter) if she thought I had better issue it anonymously or
append my name. She replied that it was the wish of the Masters that it
should be signed thus:"For the Committee of Seven, BROTHERHOOD OF LUXOR."
And so it was signed and published. She subsequently explained that our
work, and much more of the same kind, was being supervised by a Committee of
seven Adepts belonging to the Egyptian
                p. 76
group of the Universal Mystic Brotherhood. Up to this time she had not even
seen the circular, but now I took one to her myself and she began to read it
attentively. Presently she laughed, and told me to read the acrostic made by
the initials of the six paragraphs. To my amazement, I found that they spelt
the name under which I knew the (Egyptian) adept under whose orders I was
then studying and working....."

 > ====================================
> >
> > > Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how
> > many different varieties of Adept there is, and the Master said 65.
> > >
> > > DTB Do you have the reference for this statement?  I cannot
> > > recollect it.  I would be obliged for your giving me the source
> > > for it.  Where did the Master say "65 ?"
> > > Is there anything else given there in additional explanation?
> > > I would very much like to be able to see it.
> > > To myself I say:  And why "65" and not "70 ?"
> > > I cannot recollect reading this in MAHATMA LETTERS, or some of
> > > the other sources that have reprinted Masters' letters.  But then
> > > I have not read everything either.
> >
> > I must confess that I made an error in quoting that number from
> > memory. The
> > number is "63". ODL, Vol.1 p278.
> >
> > DTB  THANKS  BUT I THINK YOU GOT THE WRONG PAGE, AS THERE IS
> > NOTHING ABOUT THAT THERE.  So  ?   Maybe there was a change in
> > pagination ?  What chapter ?  It is also possible that my 2nd
> > edition has a different pagination than yours.  what Chapter do
> > you read that in?

This is the 3rd printing, 1974. It dosen't mention an Edition number.

> >
> >   ==================== ? =================

Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, again, and I checked the number again. I have
dislexia, and sometimes numbers change around (and especially headlines, for
some reason).

This is in Chapter XVII, REINCARNATION, which starts on p. 277. The one line
quote is on p. 278, the second page of the chapter. HSO is saying that the
Masters were not teaching either of them about Reincarnation, when they
wrote ISIS, but it was incorporated in SD. The chapter, so far is all one
paragraph that stretches over 1 page, and 2 half pages. He is commenting on
the various notes that he has of his teacher teaching various things, and
about 2/3 of the way through the paragraph, and on the second page of my
copy of the book is this quote,:

"There are said to be sixty-three stages of Adeptship, and it is not
impossible. There are, among them, I was told, men who are great natural
psychics yet almost illiterate; and a least one, who, like Buddha's
favorite,
            p. 279
Ananda, possesses no Siddhis, yet is so intuitional as to be able to
understand all esoteric writings at sight. My notes report the Teacher as
telling me that "Souls go hence after death to other planets."...
        ===========================

 So, he dosen't say WHICH Teacher told him, but just that his Teacher told
him, and that he did capitalize "Teacher".

++++++++

And on to something different.

In the SUNRISE edition on Ms. Tingley, I see photos of the Theosophical
center on Point Loma.

The last time I was on Point Loma was the fall and winter of 1950, pulling
up Ice Plant at the Navy Sonar Base on Point Loma, overlooking the kelp bed
forest in the ocean below, in preperation of a visit by an Admiral. I heard
talk of a Theosophical Center on down the road, but never had the time to go
exploring to check it out. I was just wondering, you seem to have been
around here for a long time, - Are those buildings still there? I think the
Navy has closed their operations on Point Loma, and would the property have
been returned to the owners when the Navy occupation ended?

-just curious.

Dennis



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