Theos-Talk Archives (March 2000 Message tt00003)

March 2 2000

Dear Dennis:

Thank you and I would like to respond below:

I am always careful of what I write as usually (otherwise) it
means one has to do things twice.
Just a habit of mine and not anything else.

  Dallas

dalval@nwc.net

============================


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:26 PM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND
MASTERS

----- Original Message -----
From: W. Dallas TenBroeck
Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:16 AM

> > You ask about  HPB and her work.  She was emphatically not a
> > "shell."  She was an Adept and worked as such.  There are
> > apparently times when an Adept can allow a Brother Adept to
use
> > as their "vehicle" the body that one has to use in any one
> > incarnation.  But the "owner of the body"  does NOT lose
> > consciousness -- only "stands aside" for a while as HPB
> >describes  it clearly.  It is unimportant that you may
interpret things
> >you  study differently from myself.  That is always true among
> > students.
>

I see. I was under the impression that this was a conversation. I
see it is
a word/defination discussion. I will try to alter my approach to
communicate
better in that mode.

HPB says" Someone comes and envelopes me as a misty cloud and all
at once
pushes me out of myself, and then I am not 'I' anymore-- Helena
Petrovna
Blavatsky-- but someone else....I even understand and remember it
all so
well that afterwards I can repeat it and even write down his
words...."

I suppose that you wish me to put in here the reference, so you
can go and
read it for yourself, and as you probably have the material close
at hand,
it was from a letter written by H.P.B. to her sister, vera, and
was one of a
series published by William Q. Judge in his magazine, The Path,
December
1894, Vol IX, No. 9, p.266.

DTB	Correct I have it here.   She was describing the event for
her family to understand what happened.  She was still in control
and CONSCIOUS .  A medium usually is not.  An Adept is always
aware at all times.
----------------------------------

The Evaluation of the situation by another who knew her is that,
"I will put
forth my own theory, For the purpose of the theosophical work
that body was
an instrument used by one of the Masters, known to us as H.P.B.
When he had
to attend to other business, the instrument was left in charge of
one of his
pupils or friends, who ran the body as an engineer directs his
machine when
taking duty for another...."  This is from Dr. Keightley, (who
helped put toghether the SD.) Theosophical Quarterly, New York,
Vol. VII, October, 1910. Republished in Theosophia, Los
Angeles, Vol. XVI, No. 1, p.20.

DTB	Yes that is Keightley's way of expressing the matter.  But
that does not make it correct.
 Do you mean THEOSOPHY  Vol 17 ?
--------------------------------------------------

You say she was not a "shell". Olcott & the Masters called her
that, but in
a colloquial way. There may not be a real good technical
description of what
she was. One of the Masters called the shell, "it and the brother
inside
it." Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p.247. There are other instances,
but if you
read the book, you should find them.

DTB	 understood, however the usual use of the word "SHELL"
implies (to me) that condition is of a non-self-conscious medium
usually in a trance.

HPB as far as I can ascertain was an ADEPT and always was in
control.  She "loaned" her body to other Adepts.  But was not
unconscious of the event or of the use.  I guess I am splitting
hairs, and regret annoying you.  But it is always my practice to
be as explicit as possible in comminuting so as to avoid any such
time waste as this represents to both of us.
----------------------------------------



One Technical term is "Tulku", but they say she was not exactly
that, but in
a situation similar to that. ODL, V.1, p. 243--246. Another
definition of
the term is on page 481 of BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, Vol. 1.

DTB	I am aware of both of these.
------------------------------------------------


Earlier in the last century, around 1918, the Communists killed
the Tzar and
his family. One of the daughters, not at the end of her Karma,
found the
body of a Polish girl, a few years older than her, who had tried
to commit
suicide, and the body was lying in a hospital bed, in a coma.
When this body
woke up, it had the memories of the Russian
Princess, -Anastasia-. People
who had known the Russian, said that the awakened girl had all
the memories
and mannerisms of Anastasia. DNA tests a few years ago proved
that she was
no physical relation to the Royal Families of Europe.

DTB	Theosophy offers the possibility that the body of the
unconscious person was left vacant and by some rule of Karma it
could be use by the intelligence of the princess.  That is only a
guess, as it might mean that the "astral and personal nature did
not have to go through Devachan, but because it had some ancient
affinity for the personality of the now unconscious body of the
failed suicide,  these two events permitted such a transfer.  Did
the personality of the Polish girl ever surface again?  Did
anyone maintain a study of the Polish girl to see if this now
"borrowed body" continued to be used by "Anastasia?"  Or does
that fade away and no history was maintained ?  It would be
interesting to see if there are any records of that aspect.  Do
you know any more of that?

I do not think of anything that happens "accidentally" as the
whole of Nature runs under very definite laws.  to us it may seem
to be extraordinary, but there must be some logical reason for
events to occur  -- even such a strange one as this.  I am sure
you are aware of the case of Mr. Judge ?  But that is even
stranger as reported.  See LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME p. 249 ULT
Edition:  IN A BORROWED BODY.
------------------------



This was no doubt, an example of the Tulku process happening
accidently.
It happened again a few years earlier in England, when a little 4
year old
girl named Dorothy Eady fell down stairs, went into a coma, and
when she
woke up in her own bed, demanded to be taken home. And, she
didn't mean
England.

Jonathan Cott wrote a book about it, THE SEARCH FOR OMM SETY.
I'll bet that
he didn't set the type for it, or run the presses, or order the
thing done
by himself either.  Published by Doubleday & Company, Garden
City, New York,
1987,  ISBN 0-385-23746-4.

She found her home when they visited the British Museum, in the
Egyptian
section. She wanted to stay. She asked why things were all old
and broken,
since when she had gone to sleep, everything was new and and
painted.

DTB	I have know of several cases where the reincarnation of the
Ego into a child body (usually below the age of 7) may evoke a
memory of the past personal life.  Usually this fades, but for
those who may not be aware of reincarnation the effect is
startling and often can evoke an attempt to "shush"  the child.
--------------------------------------------



The point is that this happens in nature, and the Tibetan Lamas
have made
use of this human characteristic & ability, to mimic it when
projecting
their consciousness. They usually keep their own natural body,
and just
overwhelm, or overshadow the "shell" of the person they wish to
use.
Sometimes it is their students.

DTB	Also ISIS II 600-2  HPB illustrates this process.  I am sure
that this is no "mimicry"  it is an actuality and implies a
knowledge of psychology and a control of the pathways of the
Conscious Self of One's SELF and that of others.  But also it is
clear that his exchange or control is only done when there is a
good Karmic reason for it.  I also believe that Abbe Huc narrates
something along these lines in his travel book.  I seem to recall
that.
---------------------------------------------



The masters had a problem with Karma. They looked long and hard
for a
"European Body" that they could send out to Europe & America to
teach their
beliefs, and to start their Society.They didn't want the Karma
associated
with taking over a living person who was not through with their
life, so
thay looked and waited.

DTB	I am aware of what they write on this , but your
interpretation seems to me to be yours and not theirs.  Karma is
no "problem" to Them.  The avoid making any "bad" karma.  They
live under the same rules we do, but as they are aware of them
and their inflexibility, they avoid evoking them adversely.  WE
seem to be interested in the phenomenal process and in performing
some unusual feat of control -- but the reason, the motive for
that is known only to ourselves, and could be quite selfish/  the
question is then, is it necessary?  Does it help the rest of the
world?  Is it an aspect of Brotherhood?
===============================



HPB had been associated with them before this incarnation, and
She had met
her "Adept" in London In (1851 if I recall correctly).

DTB	Yes she met her Master in the flesh in London in 1851 and
recorded it in her diary.  But she also noted that it was a
meeting of the "Master of her dreams" as she had seen him before
in her mind's eye, or, as an astral vision when she was a younger
person.
=================================



She got involved in a war, and needed assistance. They threw the
body in a ditch since they
thought she was dead. Olcott said that she had shown him where
her arm had
been broken in two places, and a severe wound over the heart, and
another
one as well, from that battle.

DTB	That was when she was with Garibaldi at the battle of
Mentana, I believe.  she was wounded several times and left for
dead, but they revived and returned.  It ha also been hinted (but
I have not found a primary source for this) that at that time
there was a change of inner SELF and her body was perhaps
reanimated with ANOTHER CONSCIOUSNESS -- which we know of as
"HPB" -- and yet the personality retained all the memories of its
earlier years.  But we simply are speculating here and are
arriving at no useful conclusion.

I say let THEOSOPHY or, the presentation thereof be witness to
the WISDOM of the HPB who acted as Messenger of the Mahatmas and
our friend.

I do not think we will be able to "explain" her  Olcott tried and
offered many theories, but of what use?  He did not profit very
well from the presentation of THEOSOPHY at least the ethics that
are part of the theory and metaphysics  and are logically derived
from them -- did not attract his close attention as things to be
practised -- or the course of the T S once that HPB and WQJ her
dead would have been quite different.
============================



Her Master re-animated her, and they formed a "club" to use her,
much in the
manner of a TULKU, except that  one of them occupied the body all
the time.
They took turns. There were 7 Masters in the group.

DTB	THAT IS NEWS TO ME.  I never read this and wonder if you
could direct me to the source of this statement.
=============================


In the Collected Works, Vol.1, pp. 414--415, bottom of p. 414
they note
"Narayan left watch-- and in came Sahib. (Master M) The latter
with orders
from Serapis to complete all by the first days of December.

DTB	I took note of this too, but "keeping watch" does not mean
that the body was INFORMED.  It means that it was carefully
watched over.  To read more into it is not the way I would go.
It is speculation.   I do not find that being informed of this
helps me to lead a better or more spiritual life.  How does it
help you ?
=====================================



In the MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P.SINNETT, letter # 45, he closes
with "I am called to
duty." p.246.  What duty? -well, it is his turn to animate the
shell, and not let it die. (my conclusion, of course)

DTB	YES, I think it is yours, but then in those same letters in
other places the "other duties" are often referred to, and as far
as I can see they do not always focus on HPB.  Usually they
indicate limits on the time that the Master can spend in
correspondence with Sinnett.
===================================



In OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, p 289, 290, 291. concerning Olcott's
Technical
Term for the shell, "avesa" "To return to the matter of the
occupancy (avesa) of H.P.B.'s body. ... Let us say that the
Master A or B had been "on guard" an hour or more, had been
working on ISIS, alone or jointly with me, and was at a given
moment saying
something to me, or if third parties were present to one of them.
Suddenly
she (he?) stops speaking, rises and leaves the room, excusing
herself for a
moment on some pretext to strangers. She presently returns, looks
around as
any new arrival would upon entering a room where there was
company, makes
herself a fresh cigarette, and says something which has not the
least
reference to what had been talked about when whe left the room.
Some one
present, wishing to keep her to the point, asks her kindly to
explain. She
shows embarrassment and inability to pick up the thread;....
says, "Oh yes:
excuse me," and goes on with her subject.  She was sometimes as
quick as
lightning in these changes, and I myself, forgetting her
multiplex
personality, have often been irritated for her seeming inability
to keep to
the same subject....

On the same page, Olcott describes how the Master occupies the
body.
"entered and by slow degrees occupied the whole body of the dead
down to its
very feet."

DTB	I looked up those pages in my OLD DIARY LEAVES SERIES of 6
volumes.  Mine is the 2nd edition 1928 -- and the pagination
seems to be different.  If you could let me have the CHAPTER
location.

Olcott and others were interested in the phenomena and the
processes they could witness.  I am interested in the PHILOSOPHY
and not those other things (of which I am aware) but as they have
nothing (or little) to do with the PHILOSOPHY, I relegate them to
the position of being interesting events --side issues -- and not
of any great importance (to me).

I say to myself that the PHILOSOPHY OF THEOSOPHY will survive a
long time when these descriptions of how HPB did this or that are
long forgotten.
=====================================



This brings to mind the Hawaiian practice of the Kahunas sending
one of
their captive spirits (like you think HPB was when standing
beside her body
when a Master was inside) to attack & kill a victim. Max Freedom
Long, THE
SECRET SCIENCE BEHIND MIRACLES, & THE SECRET SCIENCE AT WORK.
They claim
that in the process of the attack, first the feet go numb, and
the numbness
creeps up the body, and when it reaches the heart region, the
victim dies.

DTB	Did you ever come across and read HPB's story CAN THE DOUBLE
MURDER?
1876 -77 (Modern Panarion, p. 95).  (see HPB LETTERS TO
A.P.Sinnett p. 151-3 on how this was written).  HPB explains this
capacity of the astral body to be sent and directed.

I do not think that numbing death that Freedom Long writes of is
a parallel case.  As I recall Socrates describes it after he
drank the hemlock.  But dying is not being in-formed, is it ?
-------------------------------------------------------


The Masters are evidently using some similar capacity of the
human body when
they do their thing.

DTB	I am not sure what you imply by that.  Seems to be very vague
and speculative to me.
===============================


They also use this capacity when they wish to recognize a new
Dali Lama, or other reincarnational Lama, when they energize the
body of a baby, to see if it will recognize the tools and
possessions of the old Lama.


DTB	I am also not sure that the Masters play any hand in such
things.  To impute it to Them is quite speculative and may be
very inaccurate I think.  Is this process not also illustrated in
ISIS II 598 ?
----------------------------------------


In Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p 291, "I have noted above how
various Mahatmas, in writing to me about H.P.B. and her body,
spoke of the latter as a shell occupied by one of themselves."

DTB	Quite true, but might mean that the Conscious Entity we call
HPB is a Master, and He/she used that body .  If that is the
case, that does not mean that HPB as the Adept using that body
was a non-entity, or incapable of self-will and self-direction.
Of course the whole thing turns into an argument and that is
again a waste of time and proves nothing as only HPB or one of
the Masters could settle the matter.  And why should they waste
the time?
=======================================



> After her death (as far as I can see and read) he made some
> accusations that he had not dared utter to her while she was
> alive.  He also showed his animosity to Mr. Judge in more ways
> than one and was instrumental in promoting the "Judge Case"
> beyond reasonable limits, especially as it had been terminated
in
> July 1894,  and  BROTHERHOOD was the prime Object of the
> Theosophical Society.

As for BROTHERHOOD, I note very little of it in the Theosophical
Community,
what with 3 or more distinct organizations, locally, all claiming
to be the
One, True, and Original society. If there were true Brotherhood,
you would
think that they could all get together, stop fighting each other,
stop
wasting their members money duplicating each other's efforts, and
try to
extend Brotherhood to each other as well as the potential new
members.

DTB	I have no argument against that proposal.  However persons
will be individuals and make up their own minds in their own way
(and bear the karmic consequences of that).  To join one of the
TSes or another does not in any way help anyone.  The only value
that I can detect is that one might be able to cross check one's
conclusions with others so as to make sure that they are more
accurate than what one might be able to arrive at alone.  In such
mattes thee is no need to assume one is either superior or
inferior.  since we are all "Immortal Pilgrims" our "age" is
probably quite uniform.  But the areas in which we have made
ourselves proficient may differ.  Also, although all men can look
into a Diamond through one facet or another, it does not change
the Diamond, only the views differ.
====================================

> Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how
many
> different varieties of Adept there is, and the Master said 65.
>
> DTB Do you have the reference for this statement?  I cannot
> recollect it.  I would be obliged for your giving me the source
> for it.  Where did the Master say "65 ?"
> Is there anything else given there in additional explanation?
> I would very much like to be able to see it.
> To myself I say:  And why "65" and not "70 ?"
> I cannot recollect reading this in MAHATMA LETTERS, or some of
> the other sources that have reprinted Masters' letters.  But
then
> I have not read everything either.

I must confess that I made an error in quoting that number from
memory. The
number is "63". ODL, Vol.1 p278.

DTB  THANKS  BUT I THINK YOU GOT THE WRONG PAGE, AS THERE IS
NOTHING ABOUT THAT THERE.  So  ?   Maybe there was a change in
pagination ?  What chapter ?  It is also possible that my 2nd
edition has a different pagination than yours.  what Chapter do
you read that in?

  ====================	?	=================

There is another quotation which points to there being more than
one type on
each level. Blavatsky: Collected Writings, Volume XIV, p. 435 ,
These degrees are
"based (on) the seven and twelve degrees of the Hierarchy of
Adeptship.....
All these are men, and not disembodied Beings,..."

DTB	AGREED THAT THERE ARE ADEPTS AT VARIOUS LEVELS.  I would
imagine that in an Infinite Universe with uncountable
"incarnations/manifestations, there are most probably many MONADS
which have attained far higher areas of responsibility than we
might imagine.  Suffice it, then that we learn what lessons we
can from the position we are in at present.  That would include,
I think the attitude of assistance which can be exchanged between
us all -- and in that we are all BROTHERS.
-----------------------------------------



And then there is another matter. As a shell, (Avesa, Tulku,
whatever name
you may wish to use) HPB did very slight phenomena before she got
the bullet
to the heart fighting for Garibaldi. After the Group of Seven
took over the
body, it could do all sorts of phenomena. It was the battery for
the
transfer of letters back and forth from and to the Masters. After
her death,
they quit sending letters, claiming that there was no more power.

DTB	NEAR THE HEART not TO THE HEART as I read it.  also although
she was healed I have not read of there being a "GROUP OF SEVEN"
who took over the body.  DO YOU HAVE A REFERENCE FOR THAT ?

As to HPB's phenomena one need only refer to the accounts of her
family when as she a young woman returned to visit them and they
marveled at the quantity of "manifestations" all around her.  so
saying they were "slight" seems hardly the right term, unless you
qualify it and add ("to my knowledge.")
===================================


Collected Writings, Vol. XIII, p. 93,
"....It has never claimed to be the full exposition of the system
(it
advocates) in its totality; (a) because as the writer does not
boast of
being a great Initiate, she could, therefore, never have
undertaken such a
gigantic task; and (b) because had she been one, she would have
divulged
still less..."

You and Mr. Judge say that she is an Adept. She says she was not.
Who shall
one believe?

DTB	Why not trust what she wrote?  I mean the PHILOSOPHY ?  Has
that been destroyed by these accounts and details?

HPB did not say she was NOT an INITIATE.  She said that she was
not a GREAT initiate.

There is a difference, and we cannot rate that.  Many have been
the speculations written after her death as to who or what the
Real HPB was -- even extending such ideas to including in them an
"incarnation of Tsong-kha-pa."
========================================



I have seen plump individuals used as batteries for mediums at
many
churches. It is rather common, once you know what to look for. It
is obvious
that HPB had this capacity.

DTB	NOT TO ME AND I WOULD SAY THAT IS A PRESUMPTION.  Something
that we cannot prove but only speculate about.  HPB adopted a
very sedentary way of lie after she arrived in America so as to
write all that had to be done.  Earlier she had been very active
and widely traveled.  Frequently those who cease being active
develop fat -- but that is only an observation and not part of
any speculation on my part.  She was said to have developed
several diseases which would have resulted in her premature death
and also prevented THE SECRET DOCTRINE from being issued.
Apparently ( as Countess Wachmeister) recorded, she was known, at
least once if not twice, to have refused death and continued
working and writing for THEOSOPHY and for the TS.
==================================

So, it is back to studying the material, and noting those things
that have
special meaning for me. It appears to me that your purpose in
studying
Theosophy, is to Study Theosophy. My purpose is to evolve closer
to the end
of the Adept state, and beyond. There is a lot of material to put
together,
and to make a pattern, and to put it into practice. Otherwise,
for me, it is
just an intellectual exercise for the purpose of doing the
exercise.

DTB	Each to his own.  If you think you will do well with your
area and method, then good.
Yes  I do study THEOSOPHY.  The study of people and events may
also eventually lead to some conclusions, but if they are limited
to our present views, I am afraid that we will miss the larger
picture.

If you want a valuable book to look over then borrow a copy of M.
Gomes THEOSOPHY IN THE 19TH CENTURY -- An Annotated Bibliography,
[1994 Garland Publishing New York & London]  Looking through its
pages many aspects of Theosophical history and the nature and
work of HPB are made to stand out.  There are 2057 entries there.
It would take years to go through all of them.

Best wishes,

Dallas
---------------------------------------

Dennis

I left out lots of quotes. Hope no one minds.




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