Theos-Talk Archives (March 2000 Message tt00022)

Mar 7

Thanks Dennis

Surmises as to who or what or when the bodies of HPB or WQJ were
also used by the Masters are quite pointless for us.  The are
purely speculative, and our curiosity remains unsatisfied.

More important is the content of what the WROTE.  That is open
for thought and consideration.  If those are valued then we will
learn somethig.

Also thanks for clearing up the page differences in ODL  Now I
get the picture.

As to Point Loma -- I have not been there for many years and have
no idea what the situation now is.

Dal


  Dallas

dalval@nwc.net

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 11:49 AM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND
MASTERS



> From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
> To: <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:51 PM
> Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND
MASTERS

I have noticed that if I read a book and put it aside for years,
and then
pick it up again, lots of times I have forgotten much of what is
in it, and
the experience that I get, and the reading that I do gives me a
lot of
information. When I go back to it, many times in re-reading the
original
book, I find a lot that I didn't remember from the first time,
and lots of
the material fits in like a pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, and means
a lot more
the second or third time around.

Then there are new books and magazines coming out all the time,
and
sometimes I just put the old books on the shelf, just trying to
keep up with
the new stuff. Perhaps that is what is going on here.

> > DTB understood, however the usual use of the word "SHELL"
> > implies (to me) that condition is of a non-self-conscious
medium
> > usually in a trance.

Terminology, and intrepetation, I suppose.

> > HPB as far as I can ascertain was an ADEPT and always was in
> > control.  She "loaned" her body to other Adepts.  But was not
> > unconscious of the event or of the use.  I guess I am
splitting
> > hairs, and regret annoying you.  But it is always my practice
to
> > be as explicit as possible in comminuting so as to avoid any
such
> > time waste as this represents to both of us.
> > ----------------------------------------

> Earlier in the last century, around 1918, the Communists killed
> > the Tzar and
> > his family. One of the daughters, not at the end of her
Karma,
> > found the
> > body of a Polish girl, a few years older than her, who had
tried
> > to commit
> > suicide, and the body was lying in a hospital bed, in a coma.
> > When this body
> > woke up, it had the memories of the Russian
> > Princess, -Anastasia-. People
> > who had known the Russian, said that the awakened girl had
all
> > the memories
> > and mannerisms of Anastasia. DNA tests a few years ago proved
> > that she was
> > no physical relation to the Royal Families of Europe.
> >
> > DTB Theosophy offers the possibility that the body of the
> > unconscious person was left vacant and by some rule of Karma
it
> > could be use by the intelligence of the princess.  That is
only a
> > guess, as it might mean that the "astral and personal nature
did
> > not have to go through Devachan, but because it had some
ancient
> > affinity for the personality of the now unconscious body of
the
> > failed suicide,  these two events permitted such a transfer.
Did
> > the personality of the Polish girl ever surface again?  Did
> > anyone maintain a study of the Polish girl to see if this now
> > "borrowed body" continued to be used by "Anastasia?"  Or does
> > that fade away and no history was maintained ?  It would be
> > interesting to see if there are any records of that aspect.
Do
> > you know any more of that?

The end was only in the last couple of years. I would have
thought that you
would recall that, but I guess that if you had no interest in
these kinds of
things, you would not follow it.

The woman maintained the identity of the Russian girl to the end
of her
life. When DNA blood typing became available, scientists took
blood from
Anastasia, her polish relatives, and the royal family of England,
since
Queen Victoria of England was a blood relative of the Russian
royal family.
They compared all the DNA evidence, and found that there was no
possibility
that the physical body was in any way related to the English and
Russian
royal families. The memories of the Polish girl never reappeared,
and the
Russian memories were maintained till the death of the body.

There have been books, magazine articles, one or more Movies, and
TV
programs on that theme. I don't have any of them, and don't think
any of
them mentioned the Tulku phenomena, which seems to happen in
nature from
time to time, but is labeled as something else, if it is
commented on at
all. There has been some comment about someone having an
accident, or
getting sick and going into a coma, and when they wake up, not
knowing
relatives, and having to learn about relationships all over, and
having a
decidedly different life goals, personal psychology and moods.
These are
usually taken to be just a result of the sickness or accident,
and the new
personality inside usually has sense enough to not mention the
impossible
memories, if they remember them at all.

> > I do not think of anything that happens "accidentally" as the
> > whole of Nature runs under very definite laws.  to us it may
seem
> > to be extraordinary, but there must be some logical reason
for
> > events to occur  -- even such a strange one as this.  I am
sure
> > you are aware of the case of Mr. Judge ?  But that is even
> > stranger as reported.  See LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME p. 249
> > ULT
Edition:  IN A BORROWED BODY.

No, I was not aware of something with Mr. Judge. I did notice
what seemed to
me a definite change of personality from the time he was working
with HPB,
and later when he had a difference with Mr. Olcott, but I didn't
attach any
significance to it till I saw your comment above.

It had caused me to wonder if he had had a nervous breakdown, or
something
associated with the illness that took his life, -he seemed too
young to
die--.

I just got the Sunrise issues of his life, HPB, and Ms. Tingley.
In looking
through them, I noticed some pictures of WQJ, and in some of them
he seems
to be assured of himself, and in command, in others he seems to
have a
rather haunted look in his expression, and perhaps hunched over a
bit. Of
course, I have a slight spinal deformity, and am a little hunched
over too.
Perhaps some of the photos were taken after his illness, or
whatever it is
you were referring to.  I will pay closer attention to that issue
when I
read it. I take it then, that this is detailed in LETTERS THAT
HAVE HELPED
ME?

> > Her Master re-animated her, and they formed a "club" to use
her,
> > much in the
> > manner of a TULKU, except that  one of them occupied the body
all
> > the time.
> > They took turns. There were 7 Masters in the group.
> >
> > DTB THAT IS NEWS TO ME.  I never read this and wonder if you
> > could direct me to the source of this statement.
> > =============================

As I mentioned at the beginning of this (above), sometimes I have
books on
the shelves for years, and forget what I read years ago. I sort
of get the
sense that you have some animosity toward Mr. Olcott, and so
don't read his
material all that much, after the initial reading.

Look in OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, Chapter 5, SPIRITUALISM.
In my copy Chapter 5 starts on page 66, and ends on page 81. On
page 72,
they meet a Mr. E. Gerry Brown. On page 74, Olcott writes:

    "I wrote every word of this circular myself, alone correcting
the
printer's proofs, and paid for the printing. That is to say,
nobody dictated
a word that I should say, nor interpolated any words or
sentences, nor
                p. 75
controlled my action in any visible way. I wrote it to carry out
the
expressed wishes of the Masters that we-- HPB and I-- should help
the Editor
of the SCIENTIST at what was to him, a difficult crisis, and used
my best
judgement as to the language most suitable for the purpose. When
the
circular was in type at the printer's and I had corrected the
proofs, and
changed the arrangement of the matter into its final paragraphs,
I enquired
of HPB (by letter) if she thought I had better issue it
anonymously or
append my name. She replied that it was the wish of the Masters
that it
should be signed thus:"For the Committee of Seven, BROTHERHOOD OF
LUXOR."
And so it was signed and published. She subsequently explained
that our
work, and much more of the same kind, was being supervised by a
Committee of
seven Adepts belonging to the Egyptian
                p. 76
group of the Universal Mystic Brotherhood. Up to this time she
had not even
seen the circular, but now I took one to her myself and she began
to read it
attentively. Presently she laughed, and told me to read the
acrostic made by
the initials of the six paragraphs. To my amazement, I found that
they spelt
the name under which I knew the (Egyptian) adept under whose
orders I was
then studying and working....."

 > ====================================
> >
> > > Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how
> > many different varieties of Adept there is, and the Master
said 65.
> > >
> > > DTB Do you have the reference for this statement?  I cannot
> > > recollect it.  I would be obliged for your giving me the
source
> > > for it.  Where did the Master say "65 ?"
> > > Is there anything else given there in additional
explanation?
> > > I would very much like to be able to see it.
> > > To myself I say:  And why "65" and not "70 ?"
> > > I cannot recollect reading this in MAHATMA LETTERS, or some
of
> > > the other sources that have reprinted Masters' letters.
But then
> > > I have not read everything either.
> >
> > I must confess that I made an error in quoting that number
from
> > memory. The
> > number is "63". ODL, Vol.1 p278.
> >
> > DTB  THANKS  BUT I THINK YOU GOT THE WRONG PAGE, AS THERE IS
> > NOTHING ABOUT THAT THERE.  So  ?   Maybe there was a change
in
> > pagination ?  What chapter ?  It is also possible that my 2nd
> > edition has a different pagination than yours.  what Chapter
do
> > you read that in?

This is the 3rd printing, 1974. It dosen't mention an Edition
number.

> >
> >   ==================== ? =================

Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, again, and I checked the number again.
I have
dislexia, and sometimes numbers change around (and especially
headlines, for
some reason).

This is in Chapter XVII, REINCARNATION, which starts on p. 277.
The one line
quote is on p. 278, the second page of the chapter. HSO is saying
that the
Masters were not teaching either of them about Reincarnation,
when they
wrote ISIS, but it was incorporated in SD. The chapter, so far is
all one
paragraph that stretches over 1 page, and 2 half pages. He is
commenting on
the various notes that he has of his teacher teaching various
things, and
about 2/3 of the way through the paragraph, and on the second
page of my
copy of the book is this quote,:

"There are said to be sixty-three stages of Adeptship, and it is
not
impossible. There are, among them, I was told, men who are great
natural
psychics yet almost illiterate; and a least one, who, like
Buddha's
favorite,
            p. 279
Ananda, possesses no Siddhis, yet is so intuitional as to be able
to
understand all esoteric writings at sight. My notes report the
Teacher as
telling me that "Souls go hence after death to other planets."...
        ===========================

 So, he dosen't say WHICH Teacher told him, but just that his
Teacher told
him, and that he did capitalize "Teacher".

++++++++

And on to something different.

In the SUNRISE edition on Ms. Tingley, I see photos of the
Theosophical
center on Point Loma.

The last time I was on Point Loma was the fall and winter of
1950, pulling
up Ice Plant at the Navy Sonar Base on Point Loma, overlooking
the kelp bed
forest in the ocean below, in preperation of a visit by an
Admiral. I heard
talk of a Theosophical Center on down the road, but never had the
time to go
exploring to check it out. I was just wondering, you seem to have
been
around here for a long time, - Are those buildings still there? I
think the
Navy has closed their operations on Point Loma, and would the
property have
been returned to the owners when the Navy occupation ended?

-just curious.

Dennis



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