Theos-Talk Archives (April 1999 Message tt00037)

Hi Rich,

I like your subject title!

> I would never say "eliminate Karma."  I checked back, and I did not write
> "eliminate."  Not to quibble.  But the point is not to "eliminate" karma
> anyway, but to break the bonds that hold us to limited
> perception, limited compassion.

You are right to point out this is not what you said, that's not quibling.
I think it got mixed up because you were putting what you felt was Jerry's
understanding about the term "expectations" etc  and therefore I referred
back to his words (not yours)to the effect that if we do not expect to
punished or rewarded then we will not produce "psychic" karma.

> I do agree that forgiveness of ourselves may well
> open the door to new and better Karma, rather than carrying around baggage
year to year
> from which springs not one but an ongoing chain of "causes" ..
> <snip> But I don't think forgiveness, whether personal or
> impersonal, "eliminates" karma.

Yes, we need to be compassionate and understanding of ourselves and not to
keep punishing ourselves for what has gone before.  On the subject of
forgiveness HPB says that we should forgive those who cause us suffering and
leave it to Karma, rather than our resentments and desire for revenge, to
adjust cause and effect.  Hatred and revenge only adds to the Karmaic burden
of both people.

> Nor do I think giving up expectations and attachments to ordinary mundane
> categories eliminates Karma either.  The Adepts warn that Their every act
> opens  the door to an equal and opposite act from Their opponents,
> particularly on the material plane, which is *one* reason They avoid
> paranormal phenomenon unless necessary.
>
> But I do submit for consideration that the general understanding of Karma
> among Theosophists is simplistic, and in a word, linear (not "wrong"
> however).

I feel uncomfortable with the idea that  "the general understanding of Karma
among Theosophists is simplistic."  This idea of putting Theosophists into a
bunch and then saying they have simplistic views about anything is something
I question.  I don't know what 90% of the Theosophists in this group think
about anything, let alone what they think about Karma.  And we are just one
small group among many Theosophists.  From my own experience of other
students of Theosophy I have found that many of them have views on Karma and
other subjects that are far from "simplistic".  So, why don't we just meet
each other at whatever level of understanding we have achieved and go from
there?

You comment that my passage on Karma is complex and added "But I suspect it
gets even more so."

I'm sure you are right in this, we are just at the begining of looking at it
in a way, aren't we.  Consider the qoute below:

" Neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma, because the former is
the highest aspect of Karma, its working agent of ITSELF in one aspect, and
the other is unconscious on this plane."
(Key to Theosophy:Section 8)

Atma being the highest aspect of Karma, gives us some indication of its
'unknowable-ness' and the source from which it arises.

> I strongly suspect that our linear perception of time is misleading,
> and thus karma is not merely past acting on future, but NOW.
>  All now.  Our limitation, our relativity is now, and our
> transcendence is now.  I propose that there is no
> other time than this now anyway.

Yes, I spoke of this 'complex interelationsip with all life' extending
forwards and backwards in time from this point.  But I think you have put it
better than I have.

I little while ago, Dallas and I were having a conversation about Karma and
he put the view that:
"Karma then would be a transcendent force, to which "time" has no
significance."  This is very similar to what you are saying, I believe.

My sense is that 'at one level' all is the eternal "NOW" as you so rightly
put it, AND there are also cycles, 'ingoings' and 'outgoings' of the Great
Breath etc etc.  From what you and Dallas are saying, KARMA is intimately
connected with the these two aspects of the ONE LIFE in its 'active' and
'passive' states.

I'm also conscious that while HPB emphasises that it is an Impersonal Law,
she also says that it acts intelligently and wisely.  In this connection
there is much in the Secret Doctrine about Karma and the Lipika that we have
yet to touch on in this discussion.  But here is a one passage that brings
out the very point you were making:

"Connected as the Lipika are with the destiny of every man and the birth of
every child, whose life is already traced in the Astral Light not
fatalistically, but only because the future, like the PAST, is ever alive in
the PRESENT  -- they may also be said to exercise an influence on the
Science of Horoscopy."   (Secret Doctrine, v1, p 105)

HPB also states that while we  see only its effects, only Seers and
Initiates know the workings of Karma.  So there is obviously much that has
not yet been given out about this subject and I suspect it has to do with
what is stated in the passage above.  There is a passage in the Mahatma
Letters I have been looking for, unsuccesfully, where KH refers to the
Chohan as one "to whom the future is like an open book" (not sure if this is
exact qoute).

This is all I can manage for now.  Perhaps I'll comment on the last part of
your post next time around, which will also help to keep this post to a
relatively reasonable length.

best wishes

Peter



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