Theos-Talk Archives (April 1999 Message tt00050)

Peter,

Off the top of my head, I believe this KH quote is from Letters from the
Masters, Series I, a letter to Colonel Olcott when he was at Lahore.

I may be wrong.  Will check later.

Can't find my copy of LMW, Volume I but look in Collected Writings of HPB, VI, p
27 for a facsimile of KH's words on
the Maha Chohan.  Yes, it is in the volume LMW I and in a letter to Olcott.
Daniel

Peter Merriott wrote:

> Hi Rich,
>
> I like your subject title!
>
> > I would never say "eliminate Karma."  I checked back, and I did not write
> > "eliminate."  Not to quibble.  But the point is not to "eliminate" karma
> > anyway, but to break the bonds that hold us to limited
> > perception, limited compassion.
>
> You are right to point out this is not what you said, that's not quibling.
> I think it got mixed up because you were putting what you felt was Jerry's
> understanding about the term "expectations" etc  and therefore I referred
> back to his words (not yours)to the effect that if we do not expect to
> punished or rewarded then we will not produce "psychic" karma.
>
> > I do agree that forgiveness of ourselves may well
> > open the door to new and better Karma, rather than carrying around baggage
> year to year
> > from which springs not one but an ongoing chain of "causes" ..
> > <snip> But I don't think forgiveness, whether personal or
> > impersonal, "eliminates" karma.
>
> Yes, we need to be compassionate and understanding of ourselves and not to
> keep punishing ourselves for what has gone before.  On the subject of
> forgiveness HPB says that we should forgive those who cause us suffering and
> leave it to Karma, rather than our resentments and desire for revenge, to
> adjust cause and effect.  Hatred and revenge only adds to the Karmaic burden
> of both people.
>
> > Nor do I think giving up expectations and attachments to ordinary mundane
> > categories eliminates Karma either.  The Adepts warn that Their every act
> > opens  the door to an equal and opposite act from Their opponents,
> > particularly on the material plane, which is *one* reason They avoid
> > paranormal phenomenon unless necessary.
> >
> > But I do submit for consideration that the general understanding of Karma
> > among Theosophists is simplistic, and in a word, linear (not "wrong"
> > however).
>
> I feel uncomfortable with the idea that  "the general understanding of Karma
> among Theosophists is simplistic."  This idea of putting Theosophists into a
> bunch and then saying they have simplistic views about anything is something
> I question.  I don't know what 90% of the Theosophists in this group think
> about anything, let alone what they think about Karma.  And we are just one
> small group among many Theosophists.  From my own experience of other
> students of Theosophy I have found that many of them have views on Karma and
> other subjects that are far from "simplistic".  So, why don't we just meet
> each other at whatever level of understanding we have achieved and go from
> there?
>
> You comment that my passage on Karma is complex and added "But I suspect it
> gets even more so."
>
> I'm sure you are right in this, we are just at the begining of looking at it
> in a way, aren't we.  Consider the qoute below:
>
> " Neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma, because the former is
> the highest aspect of Karma, its working agent of ITSELF in one aspect, and
> the other is unconscious on this plane."
> (Key to Theosophy:Section 8)
>
> Atma being the highest aspect of Karma, gives us some indication of its
> 'unknowable-ness' and the source from which it arises.
>
> > I strongly suspect that our linear perception of time is misleading,
> > and thus karma is not merely past acting on future, but NOW.
> >  All now.  Our limitation, our relativity is now, and our
> > transcendence is now.  I propose that there is no
> > other time than this now anyway.
>
> Yes, I spoke of this 'complex interelationsip with all life' extending
> forwards and backwards in time from this point.  But I think you have put it
> better than I have.
>
> I little while ago, Dallas and I were having a conversation about Karma and
> he put the view that:
> "Karma then would be a transcendent force, to which "time" has no
> significance."  This is very similar to what you are saying, I believe.
>
> My sense is that 'at one level' all is the eternal "NOW" as you so rightly
> put it, AND there are also cycles, 'ingoings' and 'outgoings' of the Great
> Breath etc etc.  From what you and Dallas are saying, KARMA is intimately
> connected with the these two aspects of the ONE LIFE in its 'active' and
> 'passive' states.
>
> I'm also conscious that while HPB emphasises that it is an Impersonal Law,
> she also says that it acts intelligently and wisely.  In this connection
> there is much in the Secret Doctrine about Karma and the Lipika that we have
> yet to touch on in this discussion.  But here is a one passage that brings
> out the very point you were making:
>
> "Connected as the Lipika are with the destiny of every man and the birth of
> every child, whose life is already traced in the Astral Light not
> fatalistically, but only because the future, like the PAST, is ever alive in
> the PRESENT  -- they may also be said to exercise an influence on the
> Science of Horoscopy."   (Secret Doctrine, v1, p 105)
>
> HPB also states that while we  see only its effects, only Seers and
> Initiates know the workings of Karma.  So there is obviously much that has
> not yet been given out about this subject and I suspect it has to do with
> what is stated in the passage above.  There is a passage in the Mahatma
> Letters I have been looking for, unsuccesfully, where KH refers to the
> Chohan as one "to whom the future is like an open book" (not sure if this is
> exact qoute).
>
> This is all I can manage for now.  Perhaps I'll comment on the last part of
> your post next time around, which will also help to keep this post to a
> relatively reasonable length.
>
> best wishes
>
> Peter
>
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