Theos-Talk Archives (October 2011 Message tt00082)

Dear Jeremy and friends

My views are:

Thank you for your response Jeremy.
I find that your response are not clearly addressing the quotes I have been giving on why the Theosophical Society should be non-political. 

Why not Jeremy?


***** 1 *****
For instance the following ones by Blavatsky...

H. P. Blavatsky wrote the following in the Key to Theosophy, 1889-1890 - addressing the Christians:
"Will you revile and scoff at the "Sermon on the Mount" because your social, political and even religious laws have, so far, not only failed to carry out its precepts in their spirit, but even in their dead letter? Abolish the oath in Courts, Parliament, Army and everywhere, and do as the Quakers do, if you will call yourselves Christians. Abolish the Courts themselves, for if you would follow the Commandments of Christ, you have to give away your coat to him who deprives you of your cloak, and turn your left cheek to the bully who smites you on the right. "Resist not evil, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you," for "whosoever shall break one of the least of these Commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven," and "whosoever shall say 'Thou fool' shall be in danger of hell fire." And why should you judge, if you would not be judged in your turn? Insist that between Theosophy and the Theosophical Society there is no difference, and forthwith you lay the system of Christianity and its very essence open to the same charges, only in a more serious form. "
(The Key to Theosoph, 2nd ed. 1890, p. 56)
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm

H. P. Blavatsky wrote the following in the Key to Theosophy, 1889-1890 - same year as the below article in Lucifer (!!!):
ENQUIRER. Do you take any part in politics? 

THEOSOPHIST. As a Society, we carefully avoid them, for the reasons given below. To seek to achieve political reforms before we have effected a reform in human nature, is like putting new wine into old bottles. Make men feel and recognise in their innermost hearts what is their real, true duty to all men, and every old abuse of power, every iniquitous law in the national policy, based on human, social or political selfishness, will disappear of itself. Foolish is the gardener who seeks to weed his flower-bed of poisonous plants by cutting them off from the surface of the soil, instead of tearing them out by the roots. No lasting political reform can be ever achieved with the same selfish men at the head of affairs as of old. 
(The Key to Theosoph, 2nd ed. 1890, p. 56 and 231-232)
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm

Since Blavatsky wrote such things in the above book the same year as she wrote the below article in Lucifer - it makes you wonder whether the National Congress of India created by A. O. Hume and others at that time not only was a non-political body - but also not in opposition to the words in the above by Blavatsky. A short while later this changed for the worse.

What do you think about the above Blavatsky views in "The Key to Theosophy" Jeremy???

Does it not make you wonder whether the articles in Lucifer aught to be read in regard to these words in this book. As well as other words by Blavatsky in articles and letters, where she clearly rejected politics. 

In the Key to Theosophy she clearly said why the non-sectarian Society had to remain non-political as well, did she not Jeremy?

***** 2 *****

And A. O. Hume was several times by Master KH deemed unfit to become an adept since he had no understanding of such ethical matters.
Try Mahatma letters, no. 30, og mÃske isÃr no. 54: ---  " I dread the appearance in print of our philosophy as expounded by Mr. H. I read his three essays or chapters on God (?) cosmogony and glimpses of the origin of things in general, and had to cross out nearly all."...And Mahatma Letter no. 6: "A very, very excellent man our friend Mr. Hume, but utterly unfit for moulding into an adept." (Master KH).


The article named OUR THREE OBJECTS
(BCW XI 394.)
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v11/y1889_054.htm

It is here in PDF Facsimile version:
http://www.theosopher.net/dzyan/lucifer/lucifer_v5_n25_september_1889.pdf

H. P. Blavatsky wrote in a letter to A. P. Sinnett:
"Hume will probably leave us alone now. He has his heartâs desire in being Boss-General in Native politics and is humbugging them with sweetness as he did us. He got together about a 100 Delegates at the Bombay âNational Congressâ and one fine day will leave them all sitting in the mud while he walks off with band playing and colours flying to do some fresh deviltry. But meanwhile he will have helped Indian evolution, as he did with us."
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Letters%20of%20HPB.htm

And this aught to tell more about where Blavatsky were in this affair. She did not think much of the National Congress, yet considered it helpful to India at the time. Later the constitution of the National Congress of India was changed - and - et became clearly a political party, and ended as the founder of the constitution of India together with a few other groups. And these events are important to have in mind (!)
A good apple can turn sour - even if it is a - big apple. (smile.)

See also First Session of Indian National Congress 
(This short article seem to picture the whole affair very much to the mark.)
http://www.jimteens.com/1/first_session_indian_national_congress.htm

____________________


***** 3 *****


Do you not agree with me Jeremy that H. S. Olcott was in agreement with Blavatsky on that the Theosophical Society should be non-political???

Try the below from H. S. Olcott...

Colonel H. S. Olcott wrote:
"The tenacious observance by the Founders of our Society of the principle of absolute neutrality, on its behalf, in all questions which lie outside the limits of its declared "objects," ought to have obviated the necessity to say that there is a natural and perpetual divorce between Theosophy and Politics. Upon a hundred platforms I have announced this fact, and every other practicable way, public and private, it has been affirmed and reiterated. Before we came to India, the word Politics had never been pronounced in connection with our names; for the idea was too absurd to be even entertained, much less expressed. But in this country, affairs are in such an exceptional state, that every foreigner, of whatsoever nationality, comes under Police surveillance more or less; and it was natural that we should be looked after until the real purpose of our Society's movements had been thoroughly well shown by the developments of time. That end was reached in due course; and in the year 1880, the Government of India, after an examination of our papers and other evidence, became convinced of our political neutrality, and issued all the necessary orders to relieve us from further annoying surveillance. Since then, we have gone our ways without troubling ourselves more than any other law-abiding persons, about the existence of policemen or detective bureaux. I would not have reverted to so stale a topic if I had not been forced to do so by recent events. I am informed that in Upper India, some unwise members of the Society have been talking about the political questions of the hour, as though authorized to speak for our organization itself, or at least to give to this or that view of current agitations the imprimatur of its approval or disapproval. Again, it was but a fortnight or so ago that one of the most respectable and able of our Hindu fellows strongly importuned me to allow the Theosophical Society's influence-such as it may be-to be thrown in favour of Bills to promote religious instruction for Hindu children, and other "non-political" measures. That our members, and others whom it interests, may make no mistake as to the Society's attitude as regards Politics, I take this occasion to say that our Rules, and traditional policy alike, prohibit every officer and fellow of the Society, AS SUCH, to meddle with political questions in the slightest degree, and to compromise the Society by saying that it has, AS SUCH, any opinion upon those or any other questions. The Presidents of Branches, in all countries, will be good enough to read this protest to their members, and in every instance when initiating a candidate to give him to understand-as I invariably do-the fact of our corporate neutrality. So convinced am I that the perpetuity of our Society depends upon our keeping closely to our legitimate province, and leaving Politics "severely alone," I shall use the full power permitted to me as President-Founder to suspend or expel every member, or even discipline or discharter any Branch which shall, by offending in this respect, imperil the work now so prosperously going on in various parts of the world."
http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7112politics.html


Any comments on this Jeremy?

_____

***** 4 *****

About another of the quotes given by Jeremy:
"CONCLUSION. 
You will observe that an unusually small number of Delegates are here today and will share in my regret that there could not have been a full representation of the Branches when such important changes in the Rules are to be proposed. It is useless to deceive ourselves as to the main cause. This is the political upheaval in Indian society which has produced the National Congress, and drawn all Indian thought into the vortex of politics. The first effect of the theosophical movement was to arouse an intense interest in the ancient religions and philosophies." 

"Colonel Olcott, upon invitation, gave his views upon the political and religious state of Japan. His main point was that, unless politics go hand in hand with Religion, anarchy would be the result." Lucifer. 
http://www.theosopher.net/dzyan/lucifer/lucifer_v4_n23_july_1889.pdf 
(The article was by H. Dhammapala, and not Blavatsky. Remember the year was 1889 - the same year the Key to Theosophy was published. I guess she wrote the Key to Theosophy so to oppose Olcott's political craze tendencies and others as well. - The first part of the quote does not belong to the last paragraph of the quote. )

M. Sufilight says:
How very saddening. Olcott must have lost his head saying something like this, and Blavatsky merely told the members what was going on. , Or else you have taken the above text out of context. And I think you have Jeremy. Now I have added the PDF link for clarification - so that the readers are not confused by your post, and seemingly political inclinations. This must be clear when we consider the book "The Key to Theosophy" and quotes I have given in the above.

Let me add what was written immediately after the words on Oloctt in the above quote:
"The Empire is now passing through a crisis, brought about by the strife of two different factors.
European material civilization and Buddhism. These two can never agree, for
they regard man from two different standpoints: the one tends to brutalising,
the other to ennobling the individual."*
http://www.theosopher.net/dzyan/lucifer/lucifer_v4_n23_july_1889.pdf

Perhaps the readers will understand it all much better now. Especially if we take - non-sectarian - esoteric Buddhism into account.

The first paragraph of the quote given by Jeremy on the above was from another article or report (see page 12-13 in the article in the below)
 - I have kindly provided the link in PDf in the below so correct the confusion among the readers. And I have added a small paragraph remedying the views taken out of context once more:
"CONCLUSION. 
You will observe that an unusually small number of Delegates are here today and will share in my regret that there could not have been a full representation of the Branches when such important changes in the Rules are to be proposed. It is useless to deceive ourselves as to the main cause. This is the political upheaval in Indian society which has produced the National Congress, and drawn all Indian thought into the vortex of politics. The first effect of the theosophical movement was to arouse an intense interest in the ancient religions and philosophies." 
.......
"Politics stifle religion, as a toothache or a bankruptey makes one forget Nivana!"
http://www.theosopher.net/dzyan/theosophist/theosophist_vol_10_convention_report_1888.pdf (written by President-Founder H. S. Olcott)

So Olcott was clearly against political involvedment in that article or report where you quoted him. Was he not Jeremy?


***** 5 *****

Jeremy quoted:
"The practicability of Communism, the motto of which is, " From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs," obviously depends upon the prevalence of more generous motives, of a higher sense of duty both to work and to give-a more perfect development, in fact, of the sense of human solidarity. It is for this very reason more commendable than mere economic socialism, as an ideal, to the attention of Theosophists ; although its application, on the national or universal scale, cannot yet be said to have entered" the sphere of practical politics." Lucifer. HPB. 


M. Sufilight says:
Yes, But this was merely seeking to explain the same views as those given in the book a Key to Theosophy - and why it was and is necessary that the Theosophical Society remain a non-sectarian and non-political Society.

***** 6 *****
Jeremy quoted:
"The Master M. has a large body of pupils under his instruction, and works in connection with many organizations of an esoteric and occult kind, as well as through the politicians and statesmen of the world." IHS. 

M. Sufilight says:
Yes. But the Master were never made an article of faith within the Theosophical Society, since it was non-sectarian (!)

***** 7 *****
Jeremy wrote in his next post:
"*** Precisely, this shows that HPB and others visceral statements about "politicians" are simply flame throwing polemics, not reasoned statements from the Middle Way, and central pillar of the Tree of Life."

M. Sufilight says:
Not at all. It all just shows me, that you quote words by Olcott out of context. And does not understand that Masters like Morya and others of course has to deal with politics. But that the Theosophical Society never made Master Morya or other Masters an article of faith.
Any member can of the TS given in 1875-1891 could deal with politics - provided - that they did not injure it. Now a Master, if such a one exists - are able to dematerialise himself or herself - and this gives them much more free space to help in the arena of politics - than people in general understand.

***** 8 *****

On Mahatma Letter 82
I wonder whether it was one of those more or less spurious Mahatma Letters mentioned by Master KH in his Shannon Letter to Olcott on the ship. Some of the letters were dictated by Chelas, and they did make mistakes. Another thing about the Mahatma Letters is that, they never were made an article of faith in the period 1875-1891. They became something like 9it after the years 1923-1925 or so, when A. T. Barker and Jinarajadasa published a number of them. The rest was burned by the receivers, because they were private - if we follow Blavatsky's words on the affair.

The whole idea that it was the Masters own chiefs who send Blavatsky to New York to create the Theosophical Society was not in the public until much later on after she had died. ( Blavatsky Collected Writings, Volume 7 Page 145 )


_______

Alice A. Bailey wrote in the book A Treatise on Cosmic Fire:
"In the case of H. P. B. this is apparent. On the tide of the present endeavor, the Secret Doctrine will be vindicated and her work justified."
("A Treatise on Cosmic Fire", page 707-8, written 1925, by Alice A. Bailey, english edition.) 

Now let us vindicate and justify Blavatsky's work do you not think so?
(Jeremy?....)

A short end-note by M. Sufilight:
I do hope I have covered all the quotes and what they could yield of questions in the above. What remains is that H. S. Olcott (president for life) and Blavatsky was co-founders of the Theosophical Society - and that both of the clearly said that the Theosophical Society had nothing what so ever to do with politics. Each member was free to be political as long as it did not injure the Society. Charles Sotheran (in fact a co-founder of the TS - and a Mason with high degrees and a member of a number of occult societies) was an example the of opposite Master Morya. He ruined the Society by encouraging murder and riots. Blavatsky threw him out. And Olcott seemed to have agreed.


CONSTITUTION AND RULES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
"The Theosophical Society is absolutely unsectarian"
........
"ARTICLE XIII
Offences
1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society In political disputes shall be immediately expelled.

2. No Fellow, Officer, or Council of the Theosophical Society, or of any Section or Branch thereof, shall promulgate or maintain any doctrines being that advanced, or advocated by the Society.
http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Rules_1890.htm

I rest my case safely.

All the above are of course just my views. I do not claim myself infallible as a "pope" or similar
I do hope that it was useful at least some of it.




M. Sufilight


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeremy Condick 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:44 PM
  Subject: RE: theos-talk politics and various questions


    

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 

  > Subject: Re: theos-talk politics and various questions 
  > 
  > M. Sufilight wrote: 
  > 
  > >I conclude like Blavatsky: A politician is a living Walking LIE. 



  The Masters, Blavatsky, Bailey and any number of other altruistic persons of goodwill might conclude that a politician is capable of being a liar or deceiver out for selfish reasons of their own ambition. Likewise they might also recognise that there are such politically minded individuals working for the genuine betterment and good of society and social welfare in general. Context and meaning are everything in written dialogue especially if dispute over "a school of "practical" politics" is sought. In this political sense the Masters work through their disciples and Initiates under the 'commandment of Christ', on the political first ray line with the long range view and objective, "they look far off to future results" and also to gradual evolution of results set in motion in the past. JPC. 

  "A representative man of this class was the late distinguished American journalist and politician." CW IV 1882. 147. 

  "My friend you are a remarkably clever Editor and an astute and observant politician; and no one, perhaps, in all India goes as deep as you do into the inner constitution of the Anglo-Indian coups d'etat. Still you do not go far enough and the original primitive layers of the political soil as the genesis of some acts of my Lord Ripon were and are terra incognita to yourself as to so many others perhaps still older hands in politics than you are." Letter No. 82 Mahatma Letters . K. H. 

  "The President of our Society, Col. Olcott, has traversed the whole of India several times, upon invitation, addressing vast crowds upon theosophic themes and sowing the seed from which, in time, will be garnered the full harvest of our evangel of brotherhood and mutual dependence. The growth of this kindly feeling has been proven in a variety of ways: first, in the unprecedented gathering of races, castes and sects in the annual conventions of the Theosophical Society, second, in the rapid growth of a theosophical literature advocating our altruistic views, in the founding of various journals and magazines in several languages, and in the rapid cessation of sectarian controversies; third, in the sudden birth and phenomenally rapid growth of the patriotic movement which is centralized in the organisation called the Indian National Congress. 

  This remarkable political body was planned by certain of our Anglo-Indian and Hindu members after the model and on the lines of the Theosophical Society, and has from the first been directed by our own colleagues, men among the most influential in the Indian Empire. At the same time, there is no connection whatever, barring that through the personalities of individuals, between the Congress and its mother-body, our Society. It would never have come into existence, in all probability, if Col. Olcott had suffered himself to be tempted into the side paths of human brotherhood, politics, social reforms, etc., as many have wanted him to do. We aroused the dormant spirit and warmed the Aryan blood of the Hindus, and one vent the new life made for itself was this Congress. All this is simple history and passes unchallenged." BCW XI 394. 

  "CONCLUSION. 
  You will observe that an unusually small number of Delegates are here today and will share in my regret that there could not have been a full representation of the Branches when such important changes in the Rules are to be proposed. It is useless to deceive ourselves as to the main cause. This is the political upheaval in Indian society which has produced the National Congress, and drawn all Indian thought into the vortex of politics. The first effect of the theosophical movement was to arouse an intense interest in the ancient religions and philosophies." 

  "Colonel Olcott, upon invitation, gave his views upon the political and religious state of Japan. His main point was that, unless politics go hand in hand with Religion, anarchy would be the result." Lucifer. 

  The Indian National Congress (Hindi: àààààà ààààààààà àààààààà) (abbreviated INC, and commonly known as the Congress) is one of the two major political parties in India, the other being the Bharatiya Janata Party. It is the largest and one of the oldest democratic political parties in the world.[3][4][5] The party's modern liberal platform is largely considered center-left in the Indian political spectrum. Founded in 1885 by members of the occultist movement Theosophical Society[6]âAllan Octavian Hume, Dadabhai Naoroji, Dinshaw Wacha, Womesh Chandra Bonnerjee, Surendranath Banerjee, Monomohun Ghose, Mahadev Govind Ranade[7] and William Wedderburn wikipedia. 

  "The practicability of Communism, the motto of which is, " From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs," obviously depends upon the prevalence of more generous motives, of a higher sense of duty both to work and to give-a more perfect development, in fact, of the sense of human solidarity. It is for this very reason more commendable than mere economic socialism, as an ideal, to the attention of Theosophists ; although its application, on the national or universal scale, cannot yet be said to have entered" the sphere of practical politics." Lucifer. HPB. 

  "Neither Lord Ripon nor his Councillors (those behind the veil) anticipate any great results during his power in India. They are more Occultists than you may imagine. Their liberal reforms are not meant for India, to the weal or woes of which they are quite indifferent: they look far off to future results and -- Press acts, Ilbert's Bills, Bengal Rent Bills and the rest are aimed at Protestant England which, very soon, too soon if Somebody or Something does not interfere, will find itself suffocating in the invisible coils of the Romish Apophis. Friend and Brother, the only one of your race whom I regard with a warm, sincere affection, take care! Do not reject too lightly my warning for it is a solemn one, and but a hint I am permitted to make. Political skepticism, like every other, scorns and laughs at the observations of those who do not belong to its factions. It finds out its mistakes when in a ditch. Beware for it is no more a simple ditch, but an abyss that is being prepared for you!" Mahatma Letter 82. K.H. 

  "The Master M. has a large body of pupils under his instruction, and works in connection with many organizations of an esoteric and occult kind, as well as through the politicians and statesmen of the world." IHS. 



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