Theos-Talk Archives (October 2010 Message tt00142)

Hi Ralph,

You're right that we have totally different points of view. 

Mine is purely constructive/deductive, based on fundamental principles and primal cause and effect working forward, progressively, to subsequent causes and effects... While yours is totally reductive/inductive and based solely on working backward from present conditions. This, of course, blinds you from seeing anything beyond the lowest order physical/material world... And, thereby, denying the pre existence of consciousness as primal cause of all material forms. (Which, in effect, also denies the pre existence of God, as well as of the implicate orders of higher consciousnesses that must have existed before human consciousness became expressed on the physical plane.) 

That's okay, if all you you want to do is determine the nature of the properties and dynamics of ponderable matter and their energetic dynamics.  But such an approach entirely avoids the obvious truth that all forms of matter, which are not the result of their fundamental electrodynamics and their apparent self organizational properties, are created by subjective conscious intention-- whether ours or that of higher order beings on higher planes of reality.  

Obviously, all things start from one thing, and nothing can be created that is not in the mind of some conscious being prior to its appearance. In our lower order physical world that one thing is space-time-force or potential energy (ZPE), and those conscious beings are us.  Every form we see around us, except those of sentient living beings, is a creation of our own consciousness.  What makes you think the cosmos acted any differently before we came along?  

Therefore, my assumption that creative consciousness must be an essential nature of primal or unconditioned space (along with infinite information) before the initial appearance of spacetime and all its energetic material forms -- is a valid basis of any theory of consciousness and its relationship to the essentially holographic universe and everything within it that is a part of it.  

So, even if the universe was created by a personal God, as some might believe, He still would have to be absolutely aware, contain infinite information or intelligence, and also be infinitely energetic... IOW, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. This, on the other hand,  could also describe the nature of pure unconditioned consciousness of pre-cosmic absolute space itself, as the first cause of all phenomenal existence.  

If so, what need is there for a separate mysterious God, such as presumed in the Biblical sense, who creates our material world in six days?  As I see it, those days are the first three fractal iterations of the cosmos, plus the first three analogous involutions of the physical plane, each with their own time cycles depending on their frequency.  Nothing complex in any of that... See:
http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/Chakrafield-spherical-col_3.jpg
http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/Cyclic-paths-cosmogenesis.jpg
Note that the frequencies start at near infinite velocity and step down in four inner world phases until our light speed-limited physical world is reached.

In such a case, our consciousness and free will, would have to be a lesser reflection or spark of the super or god consciousness of the primal absolute space .  Therefore, my proposition that consciousness must precedes all material forms, is entirely valid scientifically, religiously or mystically.  For, no matter how we look at it, the magician has to come before the magic, the horse before the cart, consciousness before the idea, the blueprint before the building, the thought before the action.  Apparently, your model sees things just the opposite. 

I agree that your reductive viewpoint and model seems to make some inductively logical sense.  But it rests on (what to me is an entirely false premise)... That matter is all there is, and that the natural world we all materially exist in and are physically made up of, is what our senses tell us it apparently appears to be... Not what it actually is.  

You seem to forget that nowhere does any of that objective matter, its structures, or its processes explain the causal basis of perceptive awareness and will, or explain the actual subjective experience or qualia of consciousness. To say such experience is due to a twist of matter, a fold of a protein or a structural (material) code buried in ordered water, is simply nothing more than unfounded presumptions.  Besides, all structures of water are highly volatile and temporarily, as is its molecular binding itself. So how could water have anything to do with mind or memory?

So your story, while it sounds like it is logical, is simply a wild guess based on your unfounded assumptions that matter is subjectively causative, consciousness must be an epiphenomena of both neural and life sustaining processes, and so called "ordered water of respiration, having supposedly permanent 6^n structural combinations (which are actually based on frequency phase interrelationships of scalar standing waves that compose all fundamental particles, including the total space-time universe itself) is capable of carrying all the holographic information of consciousness, as well as reconstructing it and perceiving it.  All this rests on a cockamamie idea that such supposedly encoded information can fold proteins, and thus create the experience of consciousness out of nothing.  This is as nonsensically unscientific and non philosophical as saying a magical God sitting on a throne in heaven created the entire universe with the wave of his hand.  

So, while you may be right that consciousness is experienced through a haptic or tooch-like process, you are wrong in assuming that ordered water, neural or respiratory processes, or protein folding has any part in how the objective hologram information of consciousness is detected, reconstructed and perceived subjectively.  

Obviously, the absolutely static conscious center of the ZPE or spin momentum origin of all spherical standing wave particles or radiant fields, can only experience the pressure changes of the reflected phonons of the modulated photonic patterns of information carried by such fields, as wave interference patterned holograms. 

Such holograms can only be reconstructed holographically by projection of coherent radiation from the ZPE surrounding the static (absolute) zero-point of individual consciousness at the center of the information carrying field. This is analogous to the way information is encoded and carried by radio and television systems, with the brain acting as the camera, microphone, transformer, channeler, antenna, transmitter/resonator/oscillator, etc.... And with our conscious ZPE source acting as the detector/receiver of the information carried in the brain field and its fractal harmonics. This is direct and straightforward engineering logic based on scientific principles... And is the only scientific way perceptive and willful consciousness can be explained. The one pointed perceiver needs a hologram, and a hologram needs the 2D surface of a harmonically resonant EM field. QED

In no way, then, can your "scribbles" about how ordered water carries the information of consciousness, explain how such information, in the form of holograms converging on a single point at the eye, focussed into 2d images on the retina and reprocessed back to holograms in the brain's resonant EM field, can be detected, reconstructed and perceived by subjective consciousness -- which is located at the ZPE center of such field, as well as all its inner resonant harmonics down to the sub-quark (axion/tachyon) fields in hyperspace. 

That's why we see the 3D world from a zero-point of view in the exact center of our head. And why, because of its holographic nature, wherever we look at the Universe from, our POV is always at its exact center.  

If the information of what we see is not carried as a hologram by radiant fields, transformed by the lens into a 2D image, detected by the retinas, and transformed by the brain back into a hologram (carried as wave interference patterns in its overall radiant EM energy field) -- how could we experience it holographically from a single POV in the exact center of such a field?  

This center is actually located in the pineal gland... That is sensitive to the light we see... And which, after turning on the melatonin when we sleep, turns it off and turns on the serotonin when we awaken.  Obviously, that perceived "light" is not the same frequency phase order of the photons that impinge on the retinas, but is a much higher order harmonic, invisible to our physical sense organs.

Note that, because we see the world from a stationary point in the center of our head, no matter how we rotate our eyes, turn our head, or change the spatial position of our viewpoint, our view of the world image does not move and remains absolutely stationary.  If this were not so, it would be impossible to drive a car or paint a picture.  It also indicates that what we actually see in our singular "third eye" is a hologram.  (Bohm pointed out that if we removed the lens from our eye, all each rod and cone of the retina could see is a hologram.)

To prove the world we see is a hologram, all you have to do is the simple experiment of tracing the light of every star you see in the sky back to any zero-point on the surface of your eye. Therefore, by definition, if all the projected or reflected information of total space is converged and focussed in every zero-point of its volume -- then the physical world we see, must be a hologram. And that hologram we experience as a reconstructed 3-D holograph would certainly be replicated in the fields of the mind and the memory -- which also must be harmonically resonant with the brain's EM field as well as the standing wave fields of total space. Wouldn't this also explain all paranormal or Psi phenomena, e.g., NDE, OOBE, distant vision, telepathy, clairvoyance, altered states of Cs, etc., etc.? 

Is there any other way to explain the inner light we see from our "third eye" in the center of the mind field?  Wouldn't that perceived light have to be the analogous photons of a higher order field in hyperspace whose frequency is closest to the smallest particle surrounding the stationary ZP center of visual consciousness?  

So, where could those mind and memory fields be located -- if not in the hidden dimensions of hyperspace or "implicate order" -- whose infinitesimal particles are compressed on the physical plane within the ubiquitous Planck volume of its total space time?

Apparently, your old physics, based on simple observation of material structures and their superficial dynamics, has to catch up with the new physics coming down the pike today -- which is based on an entirely new paradigm, which starts with consciousness, time, information and potential energy as the primal cause of an infinitely expanded cosmos... Initially, manifesting out of its latency, as a near infinite frequency, double helix spiral vortex hyperspherical standing wave of pure primal space... And ends up, after descending in frequency phase through three prior worlds, as the (fourth) lowest frequency/energy phase order physical space time universe we experience (normally on its physical level only)...Which is only a tiny part of a vast multidimensional cosmos. See illustrations above. (which pictures only one of infinite possible parallel cosmoses on different radial axes of fundamental spin).

If you can imagine those three prior worlds (on both the cosmic level and the physical plane) containing conscious beings, you might be able to correlate it with the angelic worlds and their beings described metaphorically in the Bible.  You might also reread the biblical cosmogenesis, and see how it almost jibes with my ABC model of cosmogenesis, mind and consciousness (which actually tells only the first chapter of the story of how it all began and how consciousness actually works, both perceptively and creatively (willfully)) 

While I have no argument against your ideas about nested structured dualities (which begin with the structural duality of the initial triune cosmic field)... Nor do I disagree with your ideas about structured water and its function as the transport medium of life giving energies through the respiration processes of all sentient living beings, and even its function in electrochemical brain processing as a carrier of neurotransmitter molecules and calcium ions... However, I don't agree that either of those objective material concepts have anything to do with subjective perceptive or creative consciousness (awareness, will, qualia, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, integration, choice, intention, decision, etc., etc.)

So, I suggest you study my model in detail, understand the fractal nature of spatial reality, as well as the physical laws of nature based on pure electrodynamics of the electron standing wave, and see how it underlies all your physical observations and basic rules of physics.  You might also check out the tensegrity ideas and primal vector equilibrium matrix model of Buckminster Fuller, and see how they mesh with my ABC field structural model. See:
http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/Fract-Exp-Lt-Dk-matter-text.jpg			
In addition, you might also study the holographic principle and holographic brain theories of David Bohm and Karl Pribram.

Since the cutting edges of contemporary Superstring/M and quantum gravity physics are already coming closer and closer to finally proving the tenets of the fundamental ABC model of cosmogenesis, consciousness and mind that underlies all total space-time reality -- there's not much point in further trying to convince you that your "trial theory" of consciousness has no true scientific foundation, and is barking up the wrong tree.  Although, it's easy to understand how your direct observations of structured duality and your assumptions about ordered water has led you down the same blind alley as conventional standard model quantum/classical physics.

Best wishes,
Leon Maurer
http://knol.google.com/k/how-it-all-began#
How Unconditioned Consciousness, Infinite Information, 
Potential Energy, and Time Created Our Universe:
http://www.jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/85 (PDF) 
http://leonmaurer.tripod.com/  (article reprint online)


On Sep 28, 2010, at 9/28/1010:00 PM, Ralph wrote:

> --- In jcs-online@yahoogroups.com, Leon Maurer <leonmaurer@...> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Ralph,
>> 
>> Judging by your response, I take it you did not follow my entire explanation below, showing why your epiphenomenal view of consciousness being a result of materially encoded information carried by ordered water and involving protein folding -- has to be essentially wrong.   
>> 
>> In addition, it's perfectly obvious that such an eliminative materialist view is a far more complex contrivance than the fundamental proposition that consciousness must precede all material structures, beginning with the initial electro-gravitational triune (duality within a unity) field of cosmogenesis, and fractally proceeding down to the double helix hyperspherical standing wave of the smallest sub quantum "particle-waveform" next to its ZPE source in the Planck volume.  For a geometric proof that all matter is of the nature of fundamental standing waves of aetheric space, see: 
>> http://www.glafreniere.com/  and also
>> http://www.quantummatter.com/
>> 
>> I suggest you dig into LaFreni�re's as well as Wolff's demonstrative proof-of-principle (based on Schr�dinger's field theory) and really find out, from the ground up or from the inside outward, how everything actually begins and works... And try to understand why consciousness must be inside (at the source of) the surrounding fields of information it perceives... Rather than (as you and other physicalists do) continue trying to infer the nature of the invisible whole by reductively analyzing its visible parts... And, thereby, assuming that consciousness emerges from material processes. 
> 
> ..snip..


> Hi, Leon, 
> 
> You and I have differing perspectives and models.
> 
> In the storyline I advocate,  our biological, living  self is constantly generating an internal analog representation of our on-going experience.  I presently scribble that all out as arising in or near  the life-giving respiration reaction where we get a flow of energy and also are creating about 10^20 water molecules per second.  This  provides for a simple system of structural coding occurring PRIOR TO secondary neural/synaptic electrical activity, that can be closely coupled, again through structural coding,  through hydrogen-bonding influencing protein-folding  to provide connection with our various human symbols and expressions.  That level of natural dynamic structural coding fits in nicely with  other similar, slower levels of structural coding, say, in our epi-genetics and genetics. That is, we observe  a general pattern.  
> 
> In any event,  notice I am presenting a storyline where we have an internal analog language that is robust and physical and capable of supporting  MANY associations of various types and classes. Integrating the storyline of consciousness with the storyline of  respiration and life  immediately integrates a rapid build-up of "subjective impressions".  This provides  a clear view of the prior puzzle on how come we have the impression of "what it feels something like to...", or how come there is ANY *feel* at all. Think of it all like a subtle internal pressure or collapsing foam or nested "surface tension" combined with varying "viscosity".  
> 
> Plus, if you notice, ALL of this physical structural coding is very much like a raw, physical language where our internal associations are smeared inward/outward with our  internally coded associations filtering outward physically amid the breeze and glare into our various signals and expressions. We fold protein. We make some agreed upon guttural utterance and hold up two fingers.  We observe how such a system emerges. 
> 
> Notice that first comes the analog language and then comes the secondary abstracted language and expressions.  The raw, analog language is fundamental and real. The idealized abstracted models are secondary.
> 
> 
> Now, you appear to not like the physical-ness of the compact model that I advocate.  Or, is the real rub that you seem to have the fixed idea that you need to, inexplicably, force emergence of "human consciousness" at the assumed/idealized "start" of some forever eternal process whereas you apparently  feel very, very uncomfortable with human consciousness just emerging as a later  development with the advent of higher  or more complexly nested living forms?  Please notice that you advocate  "purity" in many places in your sermons and refer to the pure, unadulterated "fields", glistening in their abstracted, meditatively cleansed  holographic perfection.  Yet, you do also know that radio and TV broadcasts, in addition to their "pure fields" also REQUIRE little clumps of spinning coils and particular types of matter balanced in certain types of ways.   So, even though one can abstract and idealize and suggest that only the pure state (plus the highly abstracted model) MUST exist,  the fact remains that physical  antennas and generators and oscillators ARE absolutely necessary.  So, while you preach against the sins of physicalism, like the rest of us, you imbibe as well.  
> 
> 
> I suspect the root matter for you maintaining your position is a religious or spiritual conviction. You meditate upon a thought and in the process regenerate a certain internally structurally coded oceanic impression which fits with expressions laid down in the Eastern or meditative traditions.  In those storylines  the pure consciousness is already announced and advertised.  There are words which strain to describe the great masters' subjective impressions. Practice makes perfect and soon, with enough reps, the conclusion is fixed in place.  Or is it?
> 
> I suppose you and others can certainly say that my process is little different.  Endless reps focusing in on a certain pattern.  Yet, in addition to me being a self-absorbed idolator,  I am also running and re-running an additional physical, scientific experiment. Over the life of the experiment, the selected patterns bears fruit. 
> 
> 1. Start with a magnetic tetrahedron.  
> 2. Notice the various proliferation of states.  
> 3. Discover the underlying principle of structured duality.
> 4. Notice the influence of order of adding structure.
> 5. Discover structural coding.
> 6. Connect the pattern of the model with water, carbon, nitrogen...
> 7. Notice the 6^n structural coding pattern in respiration.
> 8. Propose the alternate analog math model for ~consciousness.
> 9. Propose the paradigm transition.
> 10. Propose wiring diagrams and variations on scales and themes.
> 
> As well, all the great masters and other fine men have and are running the same internal ~binary tetrahedral, structurally coded analog language. 
> 
> Give it some thought, Leon.  Other than your religious or spiritual training do you have evidence in your trial scientific theory for where you maintain it emerges?
> 
> Best regards,
> Ralph Frost
> 
> http://structuredduality.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 


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