Theos-Talk Archives (April 2010 Message tt00076)

Morten, et all
I understand your point however there is another side to the discussion. Christians, who have been indoctrinated by dogma,Âwould find it very difficult to move directly from christianity to theosophy. Christianity has such a strong hold over its believers thatÂmany, imo, need aÂstepping stone. Whether Besant and Bailey were attemtping to find a complimentary alternative, which embraced some christian beliefs, and whether their motives were altruistic or misguidedÂis not for us to know or I guess, even judge.

The further one goes into theosophy the less one needs to rely on old support/belief systems. 

Cass

>
>From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wed, 21 April, 2010 3:00:53 AM
>Subject: Re: Theos-World evil - minded???
>
>Â 
>Dear friends
>
>My views are:
>
>The following are just som extra views of mine. I might fail, but then please be kind to let me know.
>
>What I am sensing from the recent exchanges are that some Alice A. Bailey followers find it to be allright to at least partly deceive the Seekers after Truth, especially the Western ones, by promoting a pseudo-Exoteric theosophical teaching, (because it is not even an Exoteric theosophical one), because such a one will attract a larger following; - and that a whole lot can be gained by this. I say: Perhaps something can be gained. But what is gained in the end?
>
>This AAB view of attraction might be very well and true to some AAB teacher and followers.
>But why did H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters then warn against these same tendencies to water down the Christian groups attempts to absorb the esoteric teachings by Christianizing them? - It happened to true Masonry, which now has been very much absorbed by and is heavily bogged down with Christian-Masonry and Political-Masonry, or a mix of both. It happened with the Templars. I hold, that the Alice A. Bailey groups constitute a similar attempt - either consciously or unconsciously. The end-result is the same. The esoteric Eastern wisdom teachings of all ages are, as I see it clearly, being put down by the AAB groups entanglement with the Christian teachings. And anything smelling of Middle Eastern or even non-Western (ie. non-Christian) thinking are, these days, being checked for activities of terrorism in Westernized (say rather Christianized) counteries these days.
>
>To avoid this problem from spreading some of us have to oppose this Christianizing activity and clearly restate the Eastern Doctrine on Atma-Vidya in its pure version and non-disfigured use of vocabulary, and vibrations, disentangled from any kind of Christianizing and also disentangled from the AAB groups strange Middle Eastern deep-freeze mentalities.
>
>Just few centuries back we saw Cagliostro get jailed (hardly avoiding a death-sentence) by the Christians for promoting the Eastern Doctrine and he died a bit later. Today the Vatican consider H. P. Blavatsky's teachings to be the main force behind the New Age. Although we find this to be an unfair assumption, it tells us how much the Vatican find it self in need of opposing H. P. Blavatsky's teachings.
>____________ _________ _
>
>A sidenote to emphasise one of the problems surrounding the Middle Eastern deep-freeze doctrine among the AAB gorups.
>
>The Jesuits and their the Society of Jesus was created in 1540 with the clear aim in mind to counter Islam and the spread of it.(New Advent - http://www.newadven t.org/cathen/ 14081a.htm). And because of that - and - because the Jesutis have a very very strong influence on Christianity even today, we watch thae the Seekers in Christianized countries, by propaganda and other activities, are kept as far away possible away from forming anything but a totally blurred and false view about the Middle Eastern culture and its historical background. And the AAB groups are helping this along when they down-water the esoteric Eastern Doctrine. Yet some AAB groups are more catious than others. Though I will not count the present Lucis Trust among the best of them, due to the content in their Newsletters.
>
>- The Jesuit leader Ignatius Loyola wrote: "I will believe that the white that I see is black if the hierarchical Church so defines it",
>____________ _________ _
>
>I forgot the following quote in my quotes on AAB's views about the Word made Flesh and in fact copied another quote twice.
>I will seek to correct this:
>
>Alice A. Bailey wrote:
>"We have fought over the historical Christ, and thus fighting, have lost sight of His message of love 
>to all beings. Fanatics quarrel over His words, and fail to remember that He was "the Word made flesh." 
>We argue about the Virgin Birth of the Christ, and forget the truth which the Incarnation is intended to 
>teach. Evelyn Underhill points out in her most valuable book, Mysticism, that "The Incarnation, which is 
>for popular Christianity synonymous with the historical birth and earthly life of Christ, is for the mystic 
>not only this but also a perpetual cosmic and personal process."
>.......
>"There is life and truth and vitality in the Gospel story yet to be reapplied by us. There is dynamic and divinity in the message of Jesus."
>(From Bethlehem to Calvary, p. 7)
>http://www.light- weaver.com/ links/kingsgarde n.books.htm
>-------
>The following might also be worthwhile contrast with H. P. Blavatsky original Programe, which aimed at showing the theosophical teaching to be in contrast with the Christian Church: "Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society." (BCW, VII, p. 146)
>
>Alice A. Bailey wrote:
>"We have seen that the Christian revelation unified in itself the teachings of the past. This, Christ 
>Himself pointed out when He said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: 
>I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (St. Matt., V, 17.) He embodied all the past, and revealed 
>the highest possibility to man. The words of Dr. Berdyaev, in Freedom and the Spirit, throw light 
>on this:
>
>"The Christian revelation is universal, and everything analogous to it in other religions is 
>simply a part of that revelation. Christianity is not a religion of the same order as the others; 
>it is, as Schleiermacher said, the religion of religions. What does it matter if within [11] 
>Christianity, supposedly so different from other faiths, there is nothing original at all apart 
>from the coming of Christ and His Personality; is it not precisely in this particular that the hope 
>of all religions is fulfiled?
>- Freedom and the Spirit, by Nicholas Berdyaev, pp. 88-89."
>(From Bethlehem to Calvary, p. 7)
>http://www.light- weaver.com/ links/kingsgarde n.books.htm
>
>H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
>"The Society founded to remedy the glaring evils of Christianity, to shun bigotry and intolerance, cant and superstition and to cultivate real universal love extending even to the dumb brute".
>(The Collected Writings of H. P. Blavatsky, vol. 7, p.246) 
>http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v7/
>
>And therefore certainly not the opposite.
>
>____________ _________ _
>
>H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
>"It is, however, right that each member, once he believes in the existence of such Masters, should try to understand what their nature and powers are, to reverence Them in his heart, to draw near to Them, as much as in him lies, and to open up for himself conscious communication with the guru to whose bidding he has devoted his life. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE BY RISING TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANE WHERE THE MASTERS ARE, AND NOT BY ATTEMPTING TO DRAW THEM DOWN TO OURS."
>(BCW; Vol. XII, p. 492)
>http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_ 052.htm
>
>____________ _________ _
>
>A few more words:
>
>So far I have not seen any AAB follower clearly address these issues in the above and the previous e-mails I have written on these issues.
>And I find, that when they are questioned at their own forums or in foras - they remain silent or oppose wehemently any kind of comparative studying between their teachings and the Eastern Doctrine as it was forwarded by H. P. Blavatsky and others. They tend to call such comparative studying a negative attack on their often promoted non-comparative views.
>
>The doctrine about the Return of Christ in the physical - as a God walking on Earth - or the Word made Flesh is by some AAB followers promoted with the angle, that first you form a theory about the AAB teachings, then seceondly you get to the level where you find you have a certain amount of circumstantial evidence based on your experience and analytical abilities, the third level is when you really truely know (and not merely believe) about the teachings or part of the teachings. 
>- Yet the doctrine about working on the Return of Christ through the use of the Great Invocation , without emphasising the Atma-Vidya doctrine of the Divine within each human, is often never questioned by AAB followers to be something THEY do not know the esoterical truth about - it tends in some circles to operate as a mere belief or assumption, a mechanical reaction in fact, originating from the Christian Orthodox teachings and to a certain extend the Jesuits teaching about Jesus. This doctrine has to be put where it belong: On the shelf among assumptions, and not used before one is ready to do so through a clear knowledge - and knowledge about Atma-Vidya. Because the use of magnetic Invocative circles before knowledge about honest Atma-Vidya will most not seldom produce either an unconscious or conscious Sorcerer, or worse. But people in the Western Christinized tend to follow the "fast" lane - and dabble with magic - before they have learned the
 basic Eastern Doctrines of the Divine within themselves. Yet AAB emphasises that the Arcane School were meant for studenst who already was on probation as Chelas, named Disciples. Yet, Blavatsky stated that when one is on probation one already has a certain knowledge about the Divine within oneself. But this doctrine is down-watered by AAB, and, Christinaity is not viwed as a clear visible contrast to the Eastern Doctrine, - AND - that is where the problem is. Well that is how I see it.
>
>The truth about it all is often:
>
>Beginner Seekers after Truth and Visdom openly proclaim that they want to learn and even demand that this or that Teacher should teach THEM.
>And on top of that they want to be taught what THEY find to be the important topic and doctrines of their likening.
>
>The Teacher, the real one, is in a dilemma. He or she want to teach out of compassion. But this does not always coincide with the Wims and Wants of the beginner Seeker. Either the Teacher waits until the Seeker is mature enough to listen to common sense or the Teacher seek to attract the beginner Seekers by pretending to teach what they demand and then go and teach the real doctrine in-between meals so to speak.
>
>The former method is giving out the real non-falsified Wisdom teachings, but attracts only few.
>The other method attracts many, but is hampered by not being able to give out the true Wisdom teachings, and IMPORTANT by running the risk of promoting a doctrine far worse than the present day version of Orthodox Christianity with its many evils (because ignorant and even dangerous person tend to "copy" it), which are so difficult to understand the graveness of among, especially, Western beginner Seekers, often due to their cultural upbringing. H. P. Blavatsky and the TS ran in to the same problem when Elliot Coues created his false copy of the TS called the "Esoteric Theosophical Society". Yet they fared better, because they warned about this problem. The AAB groups can hardly do the same, because they have already turned their back to the Eastern Doctrine to a certain extend by Christianizing it, while deep-freezing the Middle Eastern part of the world.
>
>A suggestion:
>The best thing an honest AAB group can do if they refuse to put down the AAB books is perhaps the following.
>Do not only recommend the AAB books as the main doctrine. But on equal footing also the Key to Theosophy, HPB' Secret Doctrine, Bhagavad Gita (more than one version. Sir Arnold's and Shankara's are preferred by me.), Patanjali's Yoga Sutras (more than one version). And secondarily recent books on psychology + the dangers of brainwashing, recent books about on the world religions history. And emphasis om practical theosophy or practical altruism in the daily life.
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 7:32 PM
>Subject: Re: Theos-World evil - minded???
>
>Dear Duane and other readers
>
>My views are:
>
>First I would say thumbs up to you Duane for taking your time to debate the Alice A. Bailey teachings with those of us who do not understand them in the sammer manner as you do. I thank you for that. Because a clarification is badly needed within various teosophical circles and I dear say also Alice A. Bailey circles.
>
>Now, in the e-mail in the below you, so to speak, drag me into your reply to Frank and accuse me of various issues.
>I do not mind we debate about what is the right path and what one aught to do in the name of compassion and in search after the Truth.
>Something like that can only be a healthy acitivity. So let us see if we can get somewhere.
>
>1.
>When you are so self-assured about the Alice A. Bailey books validity, I find it interesting to note, that A. L. Cleather former member of the Esoteric Section of the TS and also tibetan Gelug-Pa Buddhist also rejected the Alice A. Bailey teachings. It seems an strange coincidence that these Alice A. Bailey books are hard to swallow for many so-called advanced theosophically inclined Seekers. And that most of these are well-versed in the Eastern theosophical Doctrine. 
>Dear Duane, do you not think the same?
>--------
>
>2.
>Somehow, I fail to understand, why, it should be so hard for many people to understand, that Alice A. Bailey's main teachings was a NOT non-dualistic doctrine about the Divine within each human (although she mentions this doctrine more than one time while vailing here vocabulary instead of clearly stating the doctrine) and instead a dualistic one emphasising the return of the Christ in this our physical world.
>
>A question: 
>Can you enlighten me (and perhaps others) on whether I in my many years of reading the many AAB books have overlooked something which will tell me and others that AAB in fact as her main teaching taught the non-dualistic Atma-Vidya doctrine about the Divine within each human - and NOT the opposite, namely primarily the dualistic doctrine about the return of the Christ as Saviour?
>
>H. P. Blavatsky emphasised that the new Torch-bearer whom the Masters might send would give irrefutable proof on the Gupta-Vidya (ie. Atma Vidya) teachings. Alice A. Bailey clearly claimed that she was that Torch-Bearer! - This claim obviously aught to be tested for its validity and not just like that believed with out clear examination of facts. The original Programe of the TS emphasised comparative studying, the new AAB Programe seem to lack emphasis on this among its followers. I find this very strange.
>
>I ask questions, and seldom they are answered with clear-cut quotes. Instead we are told that I have never read the AAB teaching or that I have only have read them superficially. If the books requires to be read more than 20 times each to understand the above, what good are then they for?
>(I have in fact read these Alice A. Bailey books for more than 20 years, and that is claimed to be superficial reading.)
>
>THE GREAT INVOCATION
>This is how Lucis Trust are promoting the Great Invocation today:
>http://www.lucistru st.org/invocatio n/
>
>Something must have been lacking on that website for years, Duane, if your words in the below are going to be considered valid.
>
>Alice A. Bailey (or her D.K.) wrote:
>"To prepare the men of good will for a repetition upon a far larger scale of the "act of appeal" which took place on May 6th, 1936. Then the Great Invocation was used by millions, and of its effectiveness there can be no doubt." (ES. Vol. II, p. 646)
>
>"The Great Invocation should be increasingly used, and daily and hourly must the Invocation be sent forth. The gist of that which is here set forth should be rearranged and readapted for the use of the general public for it is only through constant reiteration that men learn, and these things must be said again and again before the real work of the New Group of World Servers can make itself felt." (ES. Vol. II, p. 668)
>
>"It is the general, widespread and intelligent use of the Great Invocation which is desired. The general public must be urged, through all possible agencies, to employ it. The radio, the press, must all be utilized, and all men of good will must be contacted, even if unenlightened from the occult angle, and even if they do not realize the guiding presence of the Hierarchy and the opportunity now offered by the united effort of the Buddha and the Christ." (ES. Vol. II, p. 694)
>
>----
>"Next, by a steady experimentation with invocations, and through their use the method of calling the devas will be discovered. This development must be approached with caution, for to the unprotected it leads to disaster. Hence the necessity to inculcate pure living, the learning of protective invocations and formulas, and the power of the church and of Masonry to protect. " (ES. Vol. I, p. 126)
>----
>
>Se more in Dicsipleship in the New Age, vol. II, p. 149-151:
>"April 1945
>
>MY BROTHERS:
>As this world catastrophe draws to its inevitable close and the Forces of Light triumph over the forces of evil, the time of restoration opens up. For each of you this indicates a renewed time of service and of activity. I send you herewith the final stanza of the Great Invocation, as per my promise. I gave you the first about nine years ago and the second during the course of the war. I would ask you to use it daily and as many times a day as you can remember to do so; you will thus create a seed thought or a clear-cut thought-form [149] which will make the launching of this Invocation among the masses of men a successful venture when the right time comes. That time is not yet.
>
>This Great Invocation can be expressed in the following words:"
>.......
>"1. May Christ return to Earth. This return must not be understood in its usual connotation and its well-known mystical Christian sense. Christ has never left the Earth. What is referred to is the externalization of the Hierarchy and its exoteric appearance on Earth. The Hierarchy will eventually, under its Head, the Christ, function openly and visibly on Earth. This will happen when the purpose of the divine Will, and the plan which will implement it, are better [150] understood and the period of adjustment, of world enlightenment and of reconstruction has made real headway. This period begins at the San Francisco Conference (hence its major importance), and will move very slowly at first. It will take time, but the Hierarchy thinks not in terms of years and of brief cycles (though long to humanity), but in terms of events and the expansion of consciousness. " 
>(Dicsipleship in the New Age, vol. II, p. 149-151)
>http://www.light- weaver.com/ links/kingsgarde n.books.htm
>
>-----
>M. Sufilight asks:
>Now the above words say: "The time is not yet." Yet earliere another version of the Invocation was to be promoted to the masses. I wonder why the other later version could not be promoted as well?
>
>HPB wrote in contrast about her views on Masonry:
>"As far as we are concerned, disciples of the Masters of the Orient as we are, we have nothing to do with modern Masonry."
>("A SIGNAL OF DANGER" af H. P. Blavatsky, marts 1889)
>
>H. P. Blavatsky published in contrast with Alice A. Bailey:
>"Like Christianity, Freemasonry is a corpse from which the spirit long ago fled. "
>(ISIS UNVEILED, vol II, p. 387-388) 
>
>--------
>
>3. On Mantras and the Great Invocation
>
>- - -
>H. P. Blavatsky said, and I agree with her:
>"OCCULTISM VERSUS THE OCCULT ARTS"
>.......
>"There are four (out of the many other) names of the various kinds of Esoteric Knowledge or Sciences given, even in the exoteric Puranas There is (1) YajÃa-Vidya, * knowledge of the occult powers awakened in Nature by the performance of certain religious ceremonies and rites. (2) Mahavidya, the âgreat knowledge,â the magic of the Kabalists and of the Tantrika worship, often Sorcery of the worst description. (3) Guhya-Vidya, knowledge of the mystic powers residing in Sound (Ether), hence in the Mantras (chanted prayers or incantations) and depending on the rhythm and melody used; in other words a magical performance based on Knowledge of the Forces of Nature and their correlation; and (4) ATMA-VIDYA, a term which is translated simply âknowledge of the Soul,â true Wisdom by the Orientalists, but which means far more.
>This last is the only kind of Occultism that any theosophist who admires Light on the Path, and who would be wise and unselfish, ought to strive after. All the rest is some branch of the âOccult Sciences,â i.e., arts based on the knowledge of the ultimate essence of all things in the Kingdoms of Natureâsuch as minerals, plants and animalsâhence of things pertaining to the realm of material nature, however invisible that essence may be, and howsoever much it has hitherto eluded the grasp of Science."
>.......
>"Let then those who will dabble in magic, whether they understand its nature or not, but who find the rules imposed upon students too hard, and who, therefore, lay Atma-Vidya or Occultism asideâgo without it. Let them become magicians by all means, even though they do become Voodoos and Dugpas for the next ten incarnations. "
>
>M. Sufilight ask:
>Because of that there aught not be any use of Mantras /and the Great Invocation) without prior education in the Science of Atma-Vidya.
>If I am wrong in this view, you tell me why.
>
>Now where does Alice A. Bailey give the irrefutable proofs on Atma-Vidya?
>This question remains unanswered in Alice A. Bailey circles.
>--------
>
>4.
>Duane wrote:
>"Her teachings shouldn't be disqualified because of our prejudices around what we see as historical Christianity. . "
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>Neither should they be accepted because of peoples prejudices.
>If you want to tell the truth, you do not deceive people.
>That was why Mahatma K.H. in letter no. 10 denied the Christian God, and the idea of "pandering to prejudices".
>
>Master K. H. said: 
>"Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital H."
>
>And Alice A. Bailey several times called God a He and a gignatÃc male and thereby created confusion about the Eastern Doctrine of Visdom teachings.
>--------
>
>5.
>Duane wrote:
>"To claim someone elseâs teachings are âevil mindedâ is a serious charge that has never been substantiated on this site. "
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>Perhaps. But we find that,
>
>Master K. H. wrote: 
>"the Salvation Army by hypnotizing people and making them psychically drunk with excitement, is Black Magic" 
>(The Inner Group Teachings of H.P. Blavatsky, 2nd revised and enlarged edition, pp. xxiv and 197, compiled and annotated by Henk J. Spierenburg, San Diego, California, Point Loma Publications, 1995)
>
>So what is the use of the Great Invocation anything but unconscious sorcery at best among the non-educated masses and AAB followers, who never have heard about Parabrahm and Atma-Vidya, and who still believes that God is a He and a dualistic figure outside themselves?
>
>--------
>
>5.
>Duane wrote:
>"The Bailey material teaches Love and tolerance and goodwill. Unfortunately I find it singularly lacking in your comments as well as Mortems."
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>I have several times stated, that many AAB followers no doubt are well-meaning, and the AAB books can be used by some Seekers, to certain stages on the Path, well provided that they take care that the dangers in them do not take the along a wrong path.
>
>I wrote in fact in my previous e-mail to you the following words, while I later pointed out what I saw as problematic in the teachings:
>"I never said that AAB was not a somewhat "important contributor to Theosophy", my quote just referred to some problematic facts the Seekers after Truth are facing when they seek out and study AAB's teachings."
>
>The book Letters on Occult Meditation contains som very interesting and to some Seekers very helpful words. No doubt one of her best books, provided that some Seekers use certain beginner books together with it, and know about readin without too much dead-letter reading. Other books are as I see it trivial in their content, and others are obstacle to the Eastern Doctrine of the Divine Within each human.
>-------- 
>
>6.
>
>Duane wrote:
>"I challenge you and Mortem to show me one passage from the works of AAB that says Christ is the Messiah in the flesh. To the contrary AABs picture of the Cosmic Christ is universal. "
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>Allright let be throw the quotes I find to be problematic, and let us hear your words in response.
>
>(A)
>AAB wrote:
>"From the point of Love within the Heart of God Let love stream forth into the hearts of men. May Christ return to Earth."
>(Dicsipleship in the New Age, vol. II, p. 149-151)
>http://www.light- weaver.com/ links/kingsgarde n.books.htm
>
>(B)
>AAB wrote:
>"In the Gita we have given us (in its eighteen chapters) a description of the soul, of Krishna, the second aspect, in his true nature as God in manifestation, culminating in that marvellous chapter where he reveals himself to Arjuna, the aspirant, [xi] as the soul of all things, and the point of glory behind the veil of every form.
>In the New Testament there is depicted for us the life of a Son of God in full manifestation, wherein, freed from every veil, the soul in its true nature walks the earth. It becomes apparent to us, as we study the life of Christ, what it means to develop the powers of the soul, to attain liberation, and become, in full glory, a God walking on earth."
>(Dicsipleship in the New Age, vol. II, p. 149-151)
>http://www.light- weaver.com/ links/kingsgarde n.books.htm
>
>(C)
>AAB wrote:
>"From the point of Love within the Heart of God Let love stream forth into the hearts of men. May Christ return to Earth."
>(Dicsipleship in the New Age, vol. II, p. 149-151)
>http://www.light- weaver.com/ links/kingsgarde n.books.htm
>
>(D)
>AAB wrote:
>"Who has no use for fanaticism or hysterical devotion but Who loves all men persistently, intelligently and optimistically, Who sees divinity in them all and Who comprehends the techniques of the evolutionary development of the human consciousness (mental, emotional and physical, producing civilizations and cultures appropriate to a particular point in evolution) - these ideas the intelligent public can and will accept."
>. . .
>"They will prepare and work for conditions in the world in which Christ can move freely among men, in bodily Presence; He need not then remain in His present retreat in Central Asia. " (The Externalization of the Hierarchy (1947); p. 590)
>
>(E)
>AAB wrote:
>"When He comes at the close of this century and makes His power felt, He will come as the Teacher of Love and Unity, and the keynote He will strike will be regeneration through love poured forth on all. As He will work primarily on the astral plane, this will demonstrate on the physical plane in the formation of active groups in every city of any size, and in every country, which will work aggressively for unity, cooperation and brotherhood in every department of life - economic, religious, social and scientific." (A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, (1925); p. 754)
>
>_______H. P. Blavatsky said: "true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made Flesh...or an anthropomorphic God" ( H.P. Blavatsky's COLLECTED WRITINGS, Volume VIII, p. 390)H. P. Blavatsky said:"The Society founded to remedy the glaring evils of Christianity, to shun bigotry and intolerance, cant and superstition and to cultivate real universal love extending even to the dumb brute".(The Collected Writings of H. P. Blavatsky, vol. 7, p.246)Alice A. Bailey wrote in the book A Treatise on Cosmic Fire:"In the case of H. P. B. this is apparent. On the tide of the present endeavor, the Secret Doctrine will be vindicated and her work justified."( "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire", page 707-8, written 1925, by Alice A. Bailey, english edition.)So I am waiting for HPB being justified and that the AAB followers do not turn her teachings up-side down._______
>
>7.
>
>Duane wrote:
>"Just because HPB blasts the Jesuits for there devious and unspiritual deeds 100 years ago does not mean all of Christianity have the same negativity."
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>I does most certainly not imply that most of Christianity is without it.
>Have the Master K.H.'s Black Magicians (Dugpas) in the Vatican just like that disappeared without a trace since Alice A. Bailey wrote her books?
>And the Salvations Army has changed?
>
>I ask a questions, but the AAB followers often do not answer me.
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Duane Carpenter 
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 1:10 AM
>Subject: Theos-World evil - minded???
>
>Dear Frank
>
>Only those who have been to the âSourceâ know the validity of whose teachings came from what level or possibly the same place. Am I to believe Frank you have been to that source or fountainhead of Gudya Vidya and that is which prompts you to speak? Your idea of going into the details of this controversy is not convincing. Words as you have so aptly indicated further down in your letter shows how much you may distrust them.
>
>You and Morten need to read the works of AAB and begin to understand the differences between Mysticism and Occultism. Small paradox here since neither of you believe the teachings of AAB to be worth reading so obviously you both donât. Superficially skimming or taking someone else opinion and using it as the bases of your argument does not count.
>Mysticism has for its objective the elevation into the spirit, Occultism in contradistinction attempts to ascend to that same heights but then to bring the spirit down so that all of humanity and not simply one person here or one there can share in this revelation. If you had even a cursory understanding of the Bailey material you would realize that the Great Invocation has two parts one going up and one coming back. The Great Invocation is used in closing a prior meditation where the ascent part has already taken place.
>These distinction may mean little to you but are the basis of a new approach to liberation the whole of humanity and not just oneself. HPB laid the foundation and AAB only expanded upon her great works. 
>
>To claim someone elseâs teachings are âevil mindedâ is a serious charge that has never been substantiated on this site. The Bailey material teaches Love and tolerance and goodwill. Unfortunately I find it singularly lacking in your comments as well as Mortems. If we lack the bases and foundation of brotherhood how will there even be any understanding of there different contributions? The world is full of ism attacking each other all the time. Are we to be just one more?
>I challenge you and Mortem to show me one passage from the works of AAB that says Christ is the Messiah in the flesh. To the contrary AABs picture of the Cosmic Christ is universal. 
>Is it possible an Avatar or Buddha or Christ like figure could come to help humanity out of its morass and actually take a body to help accomplish this work? HPB took a body and no one is foolish or drespetful enough to refer to her as HPB, Messiah in the Flesh. This messiah in the flesh clichà of Mortimerâs is bizarre, unrealistic and does not exists in the Bailey material. It is a fabrication created by a mind that ha only superficially perused the works of AAB. 
>To compare the Great Invocation to the Salvation Army is pathetic and perverse humor that one day will be at your own expense karmically. Just because HPB blasts the Jesuits for there devious and unspiritual deeds 100 years ago does not mean all of Christianity have the same negativity. Gnostic Christianity reveals the same truths as does Raja Yoga. 
>
>Respectfully DC
>
>Please read the attached commentary on HPB and AAB.
>
>____________ _________ _________ __
>From: Frank Reitemeyer <ringding2010@ t-online. de>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
>Sent: Sun, April 18, 2010 1:34:04 PM
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Morten vs Dogma
>
>Duane,
>
>people, who have compared AAB with HPB only superficial spread the rumor, that both had the same source.
>But going deeper into the details you will see, that it is not so.
>
>To make a long story short the best proof that AAB spreads pseudo theosophy and not pukka theosophy is AAB's Great Invocation where the student have to pull down the spirit, whereas in HPB's tenets af the ancient wisdom the student has to raise up to the spirit.
>In other words, the AAB system is a parody or original theosophy as the pseudo theosophy of Leadbeater, too.
>
>To claim that both systems come from the same source or, even more evil minded, that the contradictions are but on the cover and have the same kernel, where in truth it is not so, is the same cant and lie as the Besant and Leadbeater aftermath lame excuses in The Theosophist about their twisting interpretations about the tenets on the planetary chains.
>
>The crisis of the Adyar TS (as well as of the Pasadena TS and the ULT) is not their ignorance of AAB, but their ignorance of pukka theosophy. They suffer not from too much HPB, but from too less HPB and their cant about Masters (1900 letter), or in plain words: Their ignorance of the the co-workers of the great ones, which was replaced by the cant about masters.
>
>Admiring of HPB is not a proof, that a lineage is true to HPB in spirit. Words are dead. I know of a group which has a promotion slogan on its publications, claiming to be on original lines of HPB. But they are in reality at least as far away from HPB as all other lineages, too.
>
>But from all lineages the ULT has got off from HPB the most, as they twist her dead letter and claim that in the 20th century the occult machines has been stopped and no agents from Shambala have been there.
>
>But comparing all these degenerations is as of you have to choice between pestilence and cholera.
>
>Frank
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Duane Carpenter 
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:21 PM
>Subject: Theos-World Morten vs Dogma
>
>Dear Morten
>If you had spent more time studying AABâs works instead of criticizing and putting her down you might have realized that she is an important contributor to Theosophy.
>My Guru is better then your Guru is old Piscean stuff that we need to let go of as we move into the true age of Aquarius. Each contributes what they can and respects what others are doing even if we do not understand it. Please read this short commentary since it was written for those who think their way is the only way and their thinking about things is the only truth.
>A short except from this commentary comparing the wonderful works of HPB with AAB :
>
>âOne of the greatest stumbling blocks to many who have studied HPBâs work is what they see as Alice Bailey personalizing the idea of Christ. If you take into account that DK himself stated that he deliberately gave the ancient wisdom teachings a Christianized emphasesfor a broader audience here in the west it will explain much. Did AAB fuse Esoteric Christianity with Esoteric Buddhism? This audacious undertaking could only be done by a Master of the Wisdom who could bypass the dogmas and historical baggage both religions bring and see the same esoteric truths that are be found in all religious traditions and emanating from the same One Source of spiritual life. For those theosophical students who have been told by erroneous sources that AAB has overly personified the principal of Love or Christ please read carefully the next passage and quote by AAB.
>âThere have always been those in every land who developed and expressed the Christ consciousness; this is loving understanding and intelligent, living service, no matter by what words or terminology they expressed the tremendous spiritual event of which they were aware. â 
>Today, as a result of a spiritual awakening which dates from 1625 A.D., and which laid the emphasis upon a wider, general education and upon a revolt from the imposition of clerical authority, the radiation from the world of souls has greatly intensified and the Kingdom of God is becoming a corporate part of the outer world expression, and this for the first time in the long, long history of humanity.
>
>The effect of this radiation or magnetic aura is now so extensive that we need no longer talk in terms of bringing in the kingdom or of its manifestation on Earth. It is already manifesting, and its aura is co-mingled with the mental, astral and etheric auras of mankind. Recognition only is required, but (and this is a factor to be noted) recognition is being withheld until the kingdom of souls can be safeguarded from the narrow claims of any church, religion or organization; many will claim (as they have ever done) that admittance into the Kingdom of God is to be found through their particular reparative group. The Kingdom of God is not Christian, or Buddhist, or to be found focused in any world religion or esoteric organization. It is simply and solely what it claims to be: a vast and integrated group of soul-infused persons, radiating [Page 408] love and spiritual intention, motivated by goodwill...â
>For all of the endless debates about Bailey vs. HPB, Bailey clearly puts the idea of the Bodhisattva or Cosmic Christ as an impersonal deity or power that expresses both intelligence and Love.
>The aspirant and probationers are baffled by the depth and profundity of both the works of AAB and HPB but have not developed the wisdom to remain silent until they know more. True disciples recognize the immense opportunity that the works of HPB and AAB offer and begin creating analogies, correspondences and links between the two
>Do these teachings of AAB's work well because they are the result of some cult like dynamic that is so often hinted at by the beginner in Theosophy who is baffled over their wide acceptance or is it because these teachings of AAB's are providing historically what may be the next step for many intelligent people who are seeking discipleship training.
>I find it somewhat ironical that the Bailey material speaks about HPB in glowing terms in dozens of places. Placing her high in the spiritual hierarchy of things and indicating the importance of her work. Many Theosophical students on the other hand who have not obviously studied the AAB material seem to go into a frenzy of delight to tear down and delegate her teachings to some dark and sinister plot.
>Most of the critics of AAB's works acknowledge that they have made a somewhat superficial study of her teachings before launching into what they see as a comparison between the two.
>The Theosophical society is in major crises brought on by its own ignorance, dogma and refusal to be open to all forms of Theosophical teachings regardless from which direction they come. Theosophy lives on but more in the teachings that have spread around the world exponentially than in its disintegrating institutions that may have started themâ. 
>Duane Carpenter
>
>____________ _________ _________ __
>From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
>Sent: Sun, April 18, 2010 3:05:37 AM
>Subject: Theos-World The Salvations Army versus Lucis Trust!?
>
>Dear friends
>
>My views are:
>
>I find that comparative studying between the very Successful Alice A. Bailey followers and Blavatskian Theosophist seldom occurs. It might be because the Alice A. Bailey followers have down-watered the importance of comparative studying and replaced it with a AAB Bible tendency?
>
>So, because of that I just added the following to Wikipedia:
>
>The Blavatskian theosophists.
>Some critics and often followers of the so-called Blavatskian theosophy on Atma-Vidya refer to the following quotes. The theosophical Master K.H. was given by H. P. Blavatsky to say: "the Salvation Army by hypnotizing people and making them psychically drunk with excitement, is Black Magic"[53]. And H. P. Blavatsky stated in contrast with Alice A. Bailey's promotion of a Great Invocation arrival of a Maitreya Saviour in the flesh that: "(a) "the coming of Christ," means the presence of CHRISTOS in a regenerated world, and not at all the actual coming in body of "Christ" Jesus; (b) this Christ is to be sought neither in the wilderness nor "in the inner chambers," nor in the sanctuary of any temple or church built by man; for Christ--the true esoteric SAVIOUR--is no man, but the DIVINE PRINCIPLE in every human being. " [54] This can be compared with Alice A. Bailey.s "The Externalization of the Hierarchy", p. 590.
>H. P. Blavatsky also said in a letter to the honourable Abbà Roca: "In carnalizing the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing the dogma of the Word made flesh, the Latin Church sets up a doctrine diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu Esotericism and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas yields." And further on she said, that a "true Theosophists will never accept either a Christ made Flesh, according to the Roman dogma, or an anthropomorphic God, still less a "Shepherd" in the person of a Pope".[55].
>http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Alice_Bailey
>
>Now if any Alice A. Bailey leader or follower have any comments I am all ears.
>Anyone?
>
>M. Sufilight
>
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