Theos-Talk Archives (July 2009 Message tt00258)

Dear friends

My views are:

Forming minor study groups or have a place like this can be very helpful.
Yet there are limitations to everything.

Each group has its time and place in evolution. And sometimes we aught not write og participate in a certain group, at other times we aught to. There are wants and desires in being part of social get-to-gethers (sometimes called ritual tribalism or tea-and-talk, at other times not), and then there are real Spiritual Needs of communication here and there. To confuse the one with the other is not that healthy. And It all depends on who you are, where you, and time, place, people and circumstances.

First study, and seek comparative study and seek to verify your studying. This can happen in solitude and in groups. Each has it positive and negative side, and sometimes we only know about a few of them.
When you have performed proper study (not only by books or written words) the Teacher will arrive. It is most often not you who find the teacher. It is the Teacher, (because more wise than you), who finds you.

They are here allright. The Masters. And also what I call old H. P. Blavatsky.
That is my experience and knowledge and what I have learned.

- - -
In problem in this group, as I see it, is that we tend to focus on theosophical teachings - dead-letter speaking - and less on other groups teachings, using other names but in fact doing very much the same. (Although I most often find important differences). There are great many new spiritual groups around these days. Some of them are being put down by theosophists without proper examination. And some of them in fact seems to be providing more well-educated Seekers than the TS, Pasadenas, ULT's and others can produce within a year or so.


M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:03 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual





  the best we can do is teach ourselves and run those teachings past others to make sure that we are on the right track.

  Cass

  >
  >From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  >Sent: Monday, 13 July, 2009 4:13:54 PM
  >Subject: Re: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >Aaah...silly me and you.
  >Maybe I aught to rephrase the sentence.
  >
  >A)
  >If I change the below sentence in mention:
  >"I believe that those who don't want to teach are the ones who can and should."
  >
  >into the following... ..
  >
  >B)
  >"I believe that those who don't DESIRE or CRAVE to teach, and who spiritually Need to teach are the ones who can and should."
  >........
  >" And those who merely Desires and Craves to teach aught not to do so. And when you do not know the difference between Desiring and Craving to teach on the one hand and your Spiritual Need through Compassion to teach on the other hand, you maybe aught to let it alone - or try and fail."
  >
  >One could ask oneself: Is it my lower Self or my Divine Self, which tells me to teach today and next week, and next month etc. - and - why o I choose this subject and not another one?
  >Am I ignorant?
  >
  >- - - -
  >
  >The below book by H. P. Blavatsky was given so that each theosophical Seeker would be able to teach...and learn.
  >
  >Try the below second edition with the wordbook and learn it by heart, while expanding on its many references and subjects and relating them to our present day. Then we all will be able to teach.
  >I find that there is more to this book than many of the later popular ones given by C. W. Leadbeater and Annie Besant. One aught to read carefully and often more than one time.
  >
  >- - - -
  >THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY
  >
  >Dedicated
  >by
  >"H. P. B."
  >To all her Pupils
  >that
  >They may Learn and Teach
  >in their turn. 
  >
  >1890 
  >2. edition
  >With a copious glossary of general theosophical terms
  >http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm
  >Also
  >H. P. Blavatsky's Glossary (Incomplete) 1892
  >http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/Aglossary. htm
  >
  >I have for some time sought to expand on this book through the corpus given by Idries Shah, Vivekananda and others. We cull the good we find in each. False gold exists so that one can recognise the real.
  >
  >Vivekananda said and I agree:
  >"I make the distinction between religion and creed. Religion is the acceptance of all existing creeds, seeing in them the same striving towards the same destination. Creed is something antagonistic and combative. There are different creeds, because there are different people, and the creed is adapted to the commonwealth where it furnishes what people want. As the world is made up of infinite variety of persons of different natures, intellectually, spiritually, and materially, so these people take to themselves that form of belief in the existence of a great and good moral law, which is best fitted for them. Religion recognizes and is glad of the existence of all these forms because of the beautiful underlying principle."
  >......
  >"The following story is one which he related recently regarding the practice of fault - finding among creeds: "A frog lived in a well. It had lived there for a long time. It was born there and brought up there, and yet was a little, small frog. Of course the evolutionists were not there to tell us whether the frog lost its eyes or not, but, for our story's sake, we must take it for granted that it had eyes, and that it every day cleansed the waters of all the worms and bacilli that lived in it, with an energy that would give credit to our modern bacteriologists. In this way it went on and became a little sleek and fat -- perhaps as much so as myself. Well, one day another frog that lived in the sea, came and fell into the well. "`Whence are you from?'
  >"`I am from the sea.'
  >"`The sea? How big is that? Is it as big as my well?' and he took a leap from one side of the well to the other. "`My friend,' says the frog of the sea, `how do you compare the sea with your little well?' "`Then the frog took another leap and asked; `Is your sea so big?' "`What nonsense you speak to compare the sea with your well.' "`Well, then,' said the frog of the well, `nothing can be bigger than my well; there can be nothing bigger than this; this fellow is a liar, so turn him out.' "That has been the difficulty all the while.
  >"I am a Hindu. I am sitting in my own little well, and thinking that the world is my well. The Christian sits in his little well and the whole world is his well. The Mohammedan sits in his well and thinks the whole world that. I have to thank you of America for the great attempt you are making to break down the barriers of this little world of ours, and hope that, in the future, the Lord will help you to accomplish that purpose.""
  >(Last part from a Speech: At The World's Parliament of Religions
  >Chicago, 15th September 1893)
  >
  >Audio + Text version
  >http://www.theunive rsalwisdom. org/hinduism/ why-we-disagree- vivekananda/ #more-6
  >
  >M. Sufilight
  >
  >----- Original Message ----- 
  >From: Cass Silva 
  >To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  >Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:55 AM
  >Subject: Re: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual
  >
  >I.Shah is telling us to avoid the teachers!
  >Cass
  >
  >>
  >>From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  >>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  >>Sent: Sunday, 12 July, 2009 4:59:36 PM
  >>Subject: Re: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>What bells?
  >>
  >>----- Original Message ----- 
  >>From: Cass Silva 
  >>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  >>Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 4:16 AM
  >>Subject: Re: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual
  >>
  >>I believe that those who don't want to teach are the ones who can and should. I.Shah
  >>
  >>Ring any bells!!!!
  >>
  >>Cass
  >>
  >>>
  >>>From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  >>>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  >>>Sent: Saturday, 11 July, 2009 8:04:53 PM
  >>>Subject: Re: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>Chuck said:
  >>>"I'm saying we need to get away from the notion of teachers as identifiable 
  >>>agents altogether."
  >>>
  >>>Yes, when they are used as a publicity-stunt.
  >>>Idries Shah has told clearly about it:
  >>>http://www.katinkah esselink. net/sufi/ sufi-shah. html
  >>>
  >>>The truth Guru's which are not physically known can be and are important. Most New Age Guru's and even present day theosophical lecturers are only average human beings, maybe bookworms or cunning orators and nothing else.
  >>>A tree is known on its fruits, and not on how cunning it is in cheating people to believe that throwing money away is a good idea or that emotional excitement is the spiritual highest.
  >>>
  >>>- - - - - - -
  >>>
  >>>Idries Shah said:
  >>>"I believe that the guru needs his disciples. If he had a sufficient outlet for his desire to be a big shot or his feeling of holiness or his wish to have others dependent on him, he wouldn't be a guru. 
  >>>
  >>>I got all that out of my system very early and, consistent with Sufi [theosophical] tradition, I believe that those who don't want to teach are the ones who can and should. The West still has a vocation hang-up and has not yet discovered this. Here, the only recognized achiever is an obsessive. In the East we believe that a person who can't help doing a thing isn't necessarily the best one to do it. A compulsive cookie baker may bake very bad cookies. "
  >>>......
  >>>"Their followers need the guru as much as the guru needs his followers. I just don't regard it as a religious operation. I take a guru to be a sort of psychotherapist. At the very best, he keeps people quiet and polarized around him and gives some sort of meaning to their lives."
  >>>......
  >>>"Why shouldn't there be room for what we might call "neighborhood psychotherapy" - the community looking after its own? However, why it should be called a spiritual activity rather baffles me."
  >>>.......
  >>>"Some are frankly phonies, and they don't try to hide it from me. They think that I am one, too, so when we meet they begin the most disturbing conversations. They want to know how I get money, how I control people, and so on."
  >>>......
  >>>"They actually feel there is something wrong with what they are doing, and they feel better if they talk to somebody else who is doing it. I always tell them that I think it would be much better if they gave up the guru role in their own minds and realize that they are providing a perfectly good social service."
  >>>
  >>>- - -
  >>>The question is if the above words are what the beginners at TS Adyar or other theosophical groups are greeted with???
  >>>
  >>>M. Sufilight
  >>>
  >>>----- Original Message ----- 
  >>>From: Drpsionic@aol. com 
  >>>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  >>>Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:40 AM
  >>>Subject: Re: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual
  >>>
  >>>Hmmm, let's see. Ghandi never faced a real opponent, Stalin would have 
  >>>had him for lunch and Mother Theresa was a ghoul who fed off the energies of 
  >>>the dying. I don't know what they were teaching but it ain't anything I 
  >>>would want to learn.
  >>>
  >>>I'm saying we need to get away from the notion of teachers as identifiable 
  >>>agents altogether.
  >>>
  >>>Chuck the Heretic
  >>>
  >>>In a message dated 7/10/2009 10:22:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
  >>>silva_cass@ yahoo. com writes:
  >>>
  >>>So you are saying that World Teachers are known by their actions rather 
  >>>than their words? If this is the case one could argue that Gandhi and Mother 
  >>>Theresa were world teachers.
  >>>
  >>>I suppose one can walk with world teachers or one can walk behind them. 
  >>>A spiritual evolved soul is probably on the way to being his/her own world 
  >>>teacher.
  >>>
  >>>Cass
  >>>
  >>>>
  >>>>From: "_Drpsionic@ aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@ aol. com) " 
  >>><_Drpsionic@ aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@ aol. com) >
  >>>>To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- talk@yahoogro ups.com) 
  >>>>Sent: Friday, 10 July, 2009 2:48:56 PM
  >>>>Subject: Theos-World Barking up the wrong tree, as usual
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>>Ok. The World Teacher thing is fun but the truth is that Theosophist have 
  >>>>been flying the wrong carpet on it since the idea floated out of Annie 
  >>>and 
  >>>>the Bishop's hats. 
  >>>>
  >>>>First, there really has never been an identifiable person who could be 
  >>>>considered a "World Teacher" who had any serious impact in his lifetime. 
  >>>The 
  >>>>Buddha was just another local nutcase and Jesus got himself killed. So 
  >>>>this business about finding out who the next "World Teacher" was going to 
  >>>be 
  >>>>makes about as much sense as trying to find out who will be the next 
  >>>Michael 
  >>>>Jackson (in the hope of aborting him before he can appear) and all the 
  >>>fuss 
  >>>>over whether it was Krishnamurti or Aleister Crowley or even L. Ron 
  >>>>Hubbard is missing the point.
  >>>>
  >>>>We can ignore crooks like Sai Baba Booey and crazy old Ben Creme for the 
  >>>>moment.
  >>>>
  >>>>If there were to be a world teacher, that individual would not have to 
  >>>>appear in public at all. He could be totally obscure, sitting in his 
  >>>living 
  >>>>room, watching reruns of old game shows on cable, an putting the 
  >>>information 
  >>>>directly into the minds of the people prepared to receive it without them 
  >>>>even knowing that he exists or that the information, the ideas as it 
  >>>were, 
  >>>>came from any source other than their own minds. The techniques are 
  >>>>certainly simple enough. Anyone can master them in a few days. Which is 
  >>>why the 
  >>>>dugpa stuff is so silly. There is nothing they can do that anyone else 
  >>>>cannot do and probably are.
  >>>>
  >>>>It is obvious that the idea of a World Teacher, wandering the earth 
  >>>>spreading teaching to the hungry masses is a simple failure to understand 
  >>>how 
  >>>>information can be spread. It is from a mindset locked into archaic and 
  >>>>fundamentally clumsy means of communication, voice, the written word, 
  >>>personal 
  >>>>appearance, even video. There is no need for any of that and one wonders 
  >>>>why those called masters of the wisdom, who frankly do not, in 
  >>>retrospect, 
  >>>>seem to have been masters of much of anything but falling off their 
  >>>flying 
  >>>>carpets, would not have realized that. 
  >>>>
  >>>>The search is a waste of time and energy. If there really is a world 
  >>>>teacher running around loose somewhere, he has no need to be found, no 
  >>>desire to 
  >>>>be public. That would just get in the way and be a distraction.
  >>>>
  >>>>It is time to face reality and forget all the nonsense that has been 
  >>>>written in the past by people who either did not know what they were 
  >>>talking 
  >>>>about or who had a vested interest in public ignorance.
  >>>>
  >>>>Chuck the heretic
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