Theos-Talk Archives (April 2009 Message tt00399)

Would this new generation be the Spartans or the Greeks! lol

Cass




________________________________
From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus.org>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 4:19:52 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication





Dear MKR,

I think formal changes and 'culture' changes in the TS will have to go hand in hand. They are certainly not mutually exclusive. 

I'm aware that the leadership at the TSA has lost some credibility. Therefore I think it's up to a next generation of Theosphists, who will have made bonds across borders and continents, to figure out the next phase in the TS. 

Govert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: MKR 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication

Let butt in with a few thoughts of my own.

The elephant in the room is the Indian Section with a very large membership.
The membership in India will vote as a block even though a few isolated ones
who may not go along with the block. Due to the unsubstantiated voting
allegations subsequent to the election, many Indian members are very unhappy
and any move from the West will be looked with great suspicion. The support
of Indian Section is essential for any future plans.

All the problems that arose are not due to the rules and regulations. It all
started with the allegation of Radhaâs health. When such allegation came
from elected leaders of several sections, they had a responsibility to deal
with it when three physicians found Radha fit, both mentally and physically.

On health matters, people trust physicians and not lay men and women however
highly educated they are. The allegers did not step up to the plate and
share the physician info with their members so that they would be seen even
handed. By keeping silent, their credibility in the minds of members has
become very low.

Also subsequent GC meeting did not help to improve the situation. No
important discussion took place as to how to deal with more fundamental
issues such as declining membership outside India and poor retention.

I think we have start addressing more fundamental issues that are critical
for the expansion of the organization in the days to come. Rules and
regulations are not going to take care them.

MKR

On 4/27/09, Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dear Katinka,
>
> I think at this moment the process of coming to terms with the diverse
> allegations is still in the phase of discovery. I mentioned the very helpful
> service Keith Fisher is providing in this, like pointing out on the basis of
> the by-laws that the writing and dissemination of the spring 2008 'election
> letters'
> was non-problematic, though possibly unethical.
>
> It's possible that after the discussion with Keith is over both the formal
> and informal leadership will perceive the whole issue as effectivley dealt
> with and that it's time to move on.
>
> It's also possible that the tables get turned and that those who made
> certain allegations, like Betty Bland, will get scrutinized in their turn.
>
> In either case reform will not happen.
>
> Preferably a grouping of the younger generation steps up the plate and
> provides some visionary leadership that will overcome the factional
> differences, provide an environment for reconciliation, and get the TS in a
> forward looking mode with a set of radical, openly discussed reform
> proposals to re-calibrate the TS into the 21st century. (For this to be
> effective I advise any and all would-be reformers to try to make connections
> with their fellow young Theosophists in Asia and India and create something
> really global.)
>
> Otherwise we'll still have to seriously think about the proposal to have
> something like an inquiry going in order to facilitate changes:
>
> "... the membership will be in need of a commission of inquiry to bring out
> all the relevant facts and analyse the procedural mistakes and
> misperceptions which have occured, not just to find the truth or facilitate
> resolution, but with an eye on remedying the problems with possibly
> long-overdue structural improvements in the governance model of our
> allegedly democratic organization. "
>
> Govert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Katinka Hesselink
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:10 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication
>
> Hi Govert, MKR and Cass,
>
> Govert: you're right of course: there's no formal organisational reason for
> us to hear from Krotona.
>
> But I think that's precisely the point. People like Cass and MKR don't
> expect to hear from Krotona because of organizational reasons, but because
> they feel that anyone who is outraged at this issue and has any authority at
> all should let it be known how they feel. Living in a network society - and
> knowing people like Joy Mills are very highly regarded within the TS - we'd
> like to hear from them.
>
> But your point is of course correct from the perspective of traditional
> organizational politics: no reason to hear from them, because they have no
> official position right now. Actually that's no different with the other
> theosophical centers: their heads don't have an official position in the TS
> either, do they?
>
> There's formal leadership (Radha, Betty, Kim Dieu) and informal leadership
> (Joy Mills, John Algeo, MKR ;) ). When leadership fails people look to the
> informal leaders. If they don't choose to step in, that's their prerogative.
>
>
> As for there also being a typewriter.. . sure. But the internet functions
> very different from the typewriter in a SOCIAL perspective. Betty's made
> mistakes in how she's written about this issue and others because (I think)
> she does not understand the power of her words and how the internet works on
> a SOCIAL level. And she's learning how it DOES work while in a very
> prominent position. She deserves compassion for the very fact that she keeps
> going and is learning. And I'm saying that with the full awareness of all I
> think she should have done different.
>
> Katinka Hesselink
>
> http://www.allconsi dering.com/
> http://www.katinkah esselink. net/
> http://www.overpein zende.nl/
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>, "Govert
> Schuller" <schuller@.. .> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Katinka & MKR,
> >
> > I do not think there is any formal organizational reason to hear from
> Krotona for the simple reason that it is not part of the TSA nor of the
> international TS. For the longest time I thought that Krotona was one of the
> many Theosophical retreats in the USA like Far Horizons, Pumkin Hollow and
> Indralaya. It is not. It is a part of the ES, which is formally independent
> of the TS, and its head is PTS Radha Burnier.
> >
> > Therefore you can not expect anybody living at Krotona or being part of
> its board to comment, on behalf of Krotona (or the ES for that matter), on
> the campaign letters, Burnier's health, the PTS election, semi-secret
> proposals and their leaking or the 2008 GC meeting.
> >
> > Of course, all are TS members and are free to speak out as individuals,
> but so are we. There is nothing intrinsically special about the group of TS
> members connected to Krotona, though there are some individuals there who
> are outstanding.
> >
> > If any authorative 'speaking out' should be done it should come from
> someone with access to the facts and a grasp of the formal structure of the
> TS like the very helpful Keith Fisher. He might bring some allegations to
> rest and if what he reports goes unchallenged, I'll take his as the last
> word.
> >
> > But he is probably not in a position to clarify and resolve all the
> inter-connected problems mentioned above. For that to happen the membership
> will be in need of a commission of inquiry to bring out all the relevant
> facts and analyse the procedural mistakes and misperceptions which have
> occured, not just to find the truth or facilitate resolution, but with an
> eye on remedying the problems with possibly long-overdue structural
> improvements in the governance model of our allegedly democratic
> organization. That will require a certain citizen-spirit in the membership
> at the grass-root level, which might express itself either through 1) open
> letters; 2) in the formally correct way at our own lodge; 3) or at the
> yearly business meeting of our respective sections; 4) and in the end,
> through sending our section heads to the 2009 GC meeting with clear
> instructions to set up such a body of inquiry.
> >
> > Govert
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Cass Silva
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online
> communication
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have just posted a similar response to Katinka
> > and you will see that I am of the same mind as
> > you.
> >
> > Cass
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: MKR <mkr777@...>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009 6:55:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online
> communication
> >
> > Hello, everyone. Nice to see Katinka share her views. I would like to add
> a
> > few facts.
> >
> > The simplest Internet application is email. These days a lot of people
> > including older and middle aged folks in the West use it to keep in touch
> > with their family and friends. If one can type with two fingers, one can
> > write a msg and email it. Age is not a barrier. My mother learnt how to
> send
> > email when she was 80 years of age. (She was born and grew up in India.)
> She
> > quit sending email only when her eye sight became bad.
> >
> > During the last one year, a lot of significant events have taken place in
> > TS. Except a few well known members, no one has come out on the Internet
> > with any views on the events. This is very significant.
> >
> > The comment about Krotona simply highlights the fact that the cream of
> the
> > dedicated, knowledgeable and experienced theosophists who are deeply
> > committed to theosophy and TS have kept silent on the events. Ordinary
> > members especially the rookies (newbees) find this totally perplexing
> > because there is a severe disconnect between what they hear of basic
> > theosophical ideas and what they see in action.
> >
> > All some of us can do is to do is go to the top of the tower and shout
> that
> > the house is on fire. Hope some one hears.
> >
> > MKR
> >
> > There is no religion higher than truth
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Katinka Hesselink <
> > mail@katinkahesseli nk.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I think a lot of the current confusion is due to the fact that the old
> > > hands at Krotona (and in Wheaton & in Adyar) just don't know what to do
> with
> > > the new media which are used to spread information and misinformation,
> > > innuendo and fact.
> > >
> > > I was talking with my mother just this morning about this. She is used
> to
> > > the slow communication methods of her youth. Getting used to students
> who
> > > rap out a fast reply to just about any question is hard for her.
> Similarly
> > > our leaders are in a position that is hardly enviable: the internet and
> > > e-mail are used to spread ideas, thoughts, opinions - but the habits of
> how
> > > to respond to them have not been formed. With the result that people
> decide
> > > on what used to be the best response to many problems: just let it blow
> > > past. Giving energy to something will only strengthen it, after all.
> > >
> > > Or in other words 'if you have nothing to say that would contribute,
> hold
> > > your tongue'. But, as both writers below have noticed, this no longer
> works
> > > in the same way. And another saying becomes pertinent: 'inaction in a
> deed
> > > of mercy is a deadly sin' (mahatma quote I think).
> > >
> > > I'm not saying it is a deadly sin. I'm saying that we are in the midst
> of a
> > > culture learning to deal with a new technology that is changing the way
> we
> > > communicate. And the people at the top are called on to learn to deal
> with
> > > them while in the spotlight. It's not surprising they are making
> serious
> > > mistakes while doing so - because it takes another way of dealing with
> > > emotions than they grew up with.
> > >
> > > So I'm not surprised at not having heard from Krotona. I'm not sure I
> blame
> > > them either.
> > >
> > > There's a digital divide here - and some are crossing it with skill,
> others
> > > without - and some are simply not crossing it at all. It really is too
> much
> > > to expect people in their eighties to do more than observe what's going
> on
> > > online.
> > >
> > > Katinka Hesselink
> > > http://www.allconsi dering.com/
> > > http://www.katinkah esselink. net/
> > > http://www.overpein zende.nl/
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>,
> > > "t_s_theosophist" <THEOSOPHIST@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ???
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It certainly takes no degree of clairvoyance to realize that a
> certain
> > > group of General Secretaries, labeled "The Quartet" has been playing
> "Dirty
> > > Politics." Anyone with a Clear and Perceptive Mind can see this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > First....An attempt to depict Radha Burnier as physically & mentally
> > > unfit to hold office, contrary to the medical evidence of three
> reputable
> > > physicans.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Second...A clandestine attempt to dis-enfranchise T.S. members from
> > > voting.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Third...An untrue and unwarranted attack on the veracity of the
> Indian
> > > Section, with no evidence to substantiate the allegations.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fourth ...An attempt to disrupt the business of the General Council
> > > meeting.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And Now a passive/agressive promotion to bias the membership against
> > > Adyar.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In the note below, M.K. Ramadoss raises a profound question which is
> on
> > > the minds of not only many Theosophists but also the internet public at
> > > large.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I would also add: What is the Karma of Silence when confronted with
> the
> > > Sinister and unmoral activity that The "Quartet" has been and continues
> to
> > > promote?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fraternaly;
> > > >
> > > > William Delahunt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ --------- -
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > M.K. RAMADOSS COMMENTS:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From what I understand, Krotona residents are long-time dedicated
> members
> > > of TS and I am also told that they are also members of esoteric
> section.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Many of the residents are past and present theosophical leaders,
> > > lecturers and writers. So, rookie members assume that the cream of
> wisdom
> > > resides there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For ordinary members who have been following the events since the
> > > beginning of the international election last year, the silence of
> members at
> > > Krotona is a real puzzle.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There was the spreading of the untruth about Radha Burnier's health
> by
> > > some leaders world-wide. Even after this untruth was proven false, the
> > > leaders took no action to fix their earlier allegations.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then came the unproven allegations of procedural errors in the
> election
> > > in India.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Final bombshell was the ultra secret attempt to seize control of
> > > presidency by disenfranchising members world-wide, which was
> fortunately
> > > discovered in time and broadcast over Internet and TS was saved from a
> > > disaster.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > During all of the above, we did not hear a single word of protest
> against
> > > any of the above from any of the leaders " past and present" residing
> at
> > > Krotona.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is the above behaviour a reflection of the fear of the consequences
> of
> > > calling a spade a spade or they do not see what was going on?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We have read in the historical accounts, men and women losing even
> their
> > > lives in their
> > > > fight for Truth. Are we seeing the real effects of Kali Yuga?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rookie and ordinary members are really perplexed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > M.K. Ramadoss
> > > >
> > > > There is no religion higher than truth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ============ ======
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Theos-Talk
> > > >
> > > > (click link)
> > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ============ =======
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For Further Documentation Relating To These Issues See:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > After the General Council Meeting 2008
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (click link)
> > > > http://www.teozofij a.info/Teozofsko _gibanje/ After_Convention
> _2008.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ============ ======
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We Invite You To Join Us Daily In...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A PROJECT OF HEALING
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (click link)
> > > > http://www.teozofij a.info/tsmembers /Delahunt_ Healing.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ============ ========
> > > > ============ =======
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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