Theos-Talk Archives (April 2009 Message tt00395)

I am an eternal optimist. I still feel that a quick dramatic action from the
leadership can start recovering the credibility they have lost. But time is
not on their side.

mkr


On 4/27/09, Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear MKR,
>
> I think formal changes and 'culture' changes in the TS will have to go hand
> in hand. They are certainly not mutually exclusive.
>
> I'm aware that the leadership at the TSA has lost some credibility.
> Therefore I think it's up to a next generation of Theosphists, who will have
> made bonds across borders and continents, to figure out the next phase in
> the TS.
>
> Govert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: MKR
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication
>
> Let butt in with a few thoughts of my own.
>
> The elephant in the room is the Indian Section with a very large
> membership.
> The membership in India will vote as a block even though a few isolated
> ones
> who may not go along with the block. Due to the unsubstantiated voting
> allegations subsequent to the election, many Indian members are very
> unhappy
> and any move from the West will be looked with great suspicion. The support
> of Indian Section is essential for any future plans.
>
> All the problems that arose are not due to the rules and regulations. It
> all
> started with the allegation of Radhaâs health. When such allegation came
> from elected leaders of several sections, they had a responsibility to deal
> with it when three physicians found Radha fit, both mentally and
> physically.
>
> On health matters, people trust physicians and not lay men and women
> however
> highly educated they are. The allegers did not step up to the plate and
> share the physician info with their members so that they would be seen even
> handed. By keeping silent, their credibility in the minds of members has
> become very low.
>
> Also subsequent GC meeting did not help to improve the situation. No
> important discussion took place as to how to deal with more fundamental
> issues such as declining membership outside India and poor retention.
>
> I think we have start addressing more fundamental issues that are critical
> for the expansion of the organization in the days to come. Rules and
> regulations are not going to take care them.
>
> MKR
>
> On 4/27/09, Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus.org <schuller%40alpheus.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Katinka,
> >
> > I think at this moment the process of coming to terms with the diverse
> > allegations is still in the phase of discovery. I mentioned the very
> helpful
> > service Keith Fisher is providing in this, like pointing out on the basis
> of
> > the by-laws that the writing and dissemination of the spring 2008
> 'election
> > letters'
> > was non-problematic, though possibly unethical.
> >
> > It's possible that after the discussion with Keith is over both the
> formal
> > and informal leadership will perceive the whole issue as effectivley
> dealt
> > with and that it's time to move on.
> >
> > It's also possible that the tables get turned and that those who made
> > certain allegations, like Betty Bland, will get scrutinized in their
> turn.
> >
> > In either case reform will not happen.
> >
> > Preferably a grouping of the younger generation steps up the plate and
> > provides some visionary leadership that will overcome the factional
> > differences, provide an environment for reconciliation, and get the TS in
> a
> > forward looking mode with a set of radical, openly discussed reform
> > proposals to re-calibrate the TS into the 21st century. (For this to be
> > effective I advise any and all would-be reformers to try to make
> connections
> > with their fellow young Theosophists in Asia and India and create
> something
> > really global.)
> >
> > Otherwise we'll still have to seriously think about the proposal to have
> > something like an inquiry going in order to facilitate changes:
> >
> > "... the membership will be in need of a commission of inquiry to bring
> out
> > all the relevant facts and analyse the procedural mistakes and
> > misperceptions which have occured, not just to find the truth or
> facilitate
> > resolution, but with an eye on remedying the problems with possibly
> > long-overdue structural improvements in the governance model of our
> > allegedly democratic organization."
> >
> > Govert
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Katinka Hesselink
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:10 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication
> >
> > Hi Govert, MKR and Cass,
> >
> > Govert: you're right of course: there's no formal organisational reason
> for
> > us to hear from Krotona.
> >
> > But I think that's precisely the point. People like Cass and MKR don't
> > expect to hear from Krotona because of organizational reasons, but
> because
> > they feel that anyone who is outraged at this issue and has any authority
> at
> > all should let it be known how they feel. Living in a network society -
> and
> > knowing people like Joy Mills are very highly regarded within the TS -
> we'd
> > like to hear from them.
> >
> > But your point is of course correct from the perspective of traditional
> > organizational politics: no reason to hear from them, because they have
> no
> > official position right now. Actually that's no different with the other
> > theosophical centers: their heads don't have an official position in the
> TS
> > either, do they?
> >
> > There's formal leadership (Radha, Betty, Kim Dieu) and informal
> leadership
> > (Joy Mills, John Algeo, MKR ;) ). When leadership fails people look to
> the
> > informal leaders. If they don't choose to step in, that's their
> prerogative.
> >
> >
> > As for there also being a typewriter... sure. But the internet functions
> > very different from the typewriter in a SOCIAL perspective. Betty's made
> > mistakes in how she's written about this issue and others because (I
> think)
> > she does not understand the power of her words and how the internet works
> on
> > a SOCIAL level. And she's learning how it DOES work while in a very
> > prominent position. She deserves compassion for the very fact that she
> keeps
> > going and is learning. And I'm saying that with the full awareness of all
> I
> > think she should have done different.
> >
> > Katinka Hesselink
> >
> > http://www.allconsidering.com/
> > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/
> > http://www.overpeinzende.nl/
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, "Govert
> > Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Katinka & MKR,
> > >
> > > I do not think there is any formal organizational reason to hear from
> > Krotona for the simple reason that it is not part of the TSA nor of the
> > international TS. For the longest time I thought that Krotona was one of
> the
> > many Theosophical retreats in the USA like Far Horizons, Pumkin Hollow
> and
> > Indralaya. It is not. It is a part of the ES, which is formally
> independent
> > of the TS, and its head is PTS Radha Burnier.
> > >
> > > Therefore you can not expect anybody living at Krotona or being part of
> > its board to comment, on behalf of Krotona (or the ES for that matter),
> on
> > the campaign letters, Burnier's health, the PTS election, semi-secret
> > proposals and their leaking or the 2008 GC meeting.
> > >
> > > Of course, all are TS members and are free to speak out as individuals,
> > but so are we. There is nothing intrinsically special about the group of
> TS
> > members connected to Krotona, though there are some individuals there who
> > are outstanding.
> > >
> > > If any authorative 'speaking out' should be done it should come from
> > someone with access to the facts and a grasp of the formal structure of
> the
> > TS like the very helpful Keith Fisher. He might bring some allegations to
> > rest and if what he reports goes unchallenged, I'll take his as the last
> > word.
> > >
> > > But he is probably not in a position to clarify and resolve all the
> > inter-connected problems mentioned above. For that to happen the
> membership
> > will be in need of a commission of inquiry to bring out all the relevant
> > facts and analyse the procedural mistakes and misperceptions which have
> > occured, not just to find the truth or facilitate resolution, but with an
> > eye on remedying the problems with possibly long-overdue structural
> > improvements in the governance model of our allegedly democratic
> > organization. That will require a certain citizen-spirit in the
> membership
> > at the grass-root level, which might express itself either through 1)
> open
> > letters; 2) in the formally correct way at our own lodge; 3) or at the
> > yearly business meeting of our respective sections; 4) and in the end,
> > through sending our section heads to the 2009 GC meeting with clear
> > instructions to set up such a body of inquiry.
> > >
> > > Govert
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Cass Silva
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:39 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online
> > communication
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have just posted a similar response to Katinka
> > > and you will see that I am of the same mind as
> > > you.
> > >
> > > Cass
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: MKR <mkr777@...>
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009 6:55:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online
> > communication
> > >
> > > Hello, everyone. Nice to see Katinka share her views. I would like to
> add
> > a
> > > few facts.
> > >
> > > The simplest Internet application is email. These days a lot of people
> > > including older and middle aged folks in the West use it to keep in
> touch
> > > with their family and friends. If one can type with two fingers, one
> can
> > > write a msg and email it. Age is not a barrier. My mother learnt how to
> > send
> > > email when she was 80 years of age. (She was born and grew up in
> India.)
> > She
> > > quit sending email only when her eye sight became bad.
> > >
> > > During the last one year, a lot of significant events have taken place
> in
> > > TS. Except a few well known members, no one has come out on the
> Internet
> > > with any views on the events. This is very significant.
> > >
> > > The comment about Krotona simply highlights the fact that the cream of
> > the
> > > dedicated, knowledgeable and experienced theosophists who are deeply
> > > committed to theosophy and TS have kept silent on the events. Ordinary
> > > members especially the rookies (newbees) find this totally perplexing
> > > because there is a severe disconnect between what they hear of basic
> > > theosophical ideas and what they see in action.
> > >
> > > All some of us can do is to do is go to the top of the tower and shout
> > that
> > > the house is on fire. Hope some one hears.
> > >
> > > MKR
> > >
> > > There is no religion higher than truth
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Katinka Hesselink <
> > > mail@katinkahesseli nk.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I think a lot of the current confusion is due to the fact that the
> old
> > > > hands at Krotona (and in Wheaton & in Adyar) just don't know what to
> do
> > with
> > > > the new media which are used to spread information and
> misinformation,
> > > > innuendo and fact.
> > > >
> > > > I was talking with my mother just this morning about this. She is
> used
> > to
> > > > the slow communication methods of her youth. Getting used to students
> > who
> > > > rap out a fast reply to just about any question is hard for her.
> > Similarly
> > > > our leaders are in a position that is hardly enviable: the internet
> and
> > > > e-mail are used to spread ideas, thoughts, opinions - but the habits
> of
> > how
> > > > to respond to them have not been formed. With the result that people
> > decide
> > > > on what used to be the best response to many problems: just let it
> blow
> > > > past. Giving energy to something will only strengthen it, after all.
> > > >
> > > > Or in other words 'if you have nothing to say that would contribute,
> > hold
> > > > your tongue'. But, as both writers below have noticed, this no longer
> > works
> > > > in the same way. And another saying becomes pertinent: 'inaction in a
> > deed
> > > > of mercy is a deadly sin' (mahatma quote I think).
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying it is a deadly sin. I'm saying that we are in the
> midst
> > of a
> > > > culture learning to deal with a new technology that is changing the
> way
> > we
> > > > communicate. And the people at the top are called on to learn to deal
> > with
> > > > them while in the spotlight. It's not surprising they are making
> > serious
> > > > mistakes while doing so - because it takes another way of dealing
> with
> > > > emotions than they grew up with.
> > > >
> > > > So I'm not surprised at not having heard from Krotona. I'm not sure I
> > blame
> > > > them either.
> > > >
> > > > There's a digital divide here - and some are crossing it with skill,
> > others
> > > > without - and some are simply not crossing it at all. It really is
> too
> > much
> > > > to expect people in their eighties to do more than observe what's
> going
> > on
> > > > online.
> > > >
> > > > Katinka Hesselink
> > > > http://www.allconsi dering.com/
> > > > http://www.katinkah esselink. net/
> > > > http://www.overpein zende.nl/
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>,
> > > > "t_s_theosophist" <THEOSOPHIST@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ???
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It certainly takes no degree of clairvoyance to realize that a
> > certain
> > > > group of General Secretaries, labeled "The Quartet" has been playing
> > "Dirty
> > > > Politics." Anyone with a Clear and Perceptive Mind can see this.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > First....An attempt to depict Radha Burnier as physically &
> mentally
> > > > unfit to hold office, contrary to the medical evidence of three
> > reputable
> > > > physicans.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Second...A clandestine attempt to dis-enfranchise T.S. members from
> > > > voting.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Third...An untrue and unwarranted attack on the veracity of the
> > Indian
> > > > Section, with no evidence to substantiate the allegations.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Fourth ...An attempt to disrupt the business of the General Council
> > > > meeting.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And Now a passive/agressive promotion to bias the membership
> against
> > > > Adyar.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In the note below, M.K. Ramadoss raises a profound question which
> is
> > on
> > > > the minds of not only many Theosophists but also the internet public
> at
> > > > large.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I would also add: What is the Karma of Silence when confronted with
> > the
> > > > Sinister and unmoral activity that The "Quartet" has been and
> continues
> > to
> > > > promote?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Fraternaly;
> > > > >
> > > > > William Delahunt
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------ --------- -
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > M.K. RAMADOSS COMMENTS:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From what I understand, Krotona residents are long-time dedicated
> > members
> > > > of TS and I am also told that they are also members of esoteric
> > section.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Many of the residents are past and present theosophical leaders,
> > > > lecturers and writers. So, rookie members assume that the cream of
> > wisdom
> > > > resides there.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For ordinary members who have been following the events since the
> > > > beginning of the international election last year, the silence of
> > members at
> > > > Krotona is a real puzzle.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There was the spreading of the untruth about Radha Burnier's health
> > by
> > > > some leaders world-wide. Even after this untruth was proven false,
> the
> > > > leaders took no action to fix their earlier allegations.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Then came the unproven allegations of procedural errors in the
> > election
> > > > in India.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Final bombshell was the ultra secret attempt to seize control of
> > > > presidency by disenfranchising members world-wide, which was
> > fortunately
> > > > discovered in time and broadcast over Internet and TS was saved from
> a
> > > > disaster.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > During all of the above, we did not hear a single word of protest
> > against
> > > > any of the above from any of the leaders " past and present" residing
> > at
> > > > Krotona.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the above behaviour a reflection of the fear of the consequences
> > of
> > > > calling a spade a spade or they do not see what was going on?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We have read in the historical accounts, men and women losing even
> > their
> > > > lives in their
> > > > > fight for Truth. Are we seeing the real effects of Kali Yuga?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rookie and ordinary members are really perplexed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > M.K. Ramadoss
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no religion higher than truth
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ============ ======
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Theos-Talk
> > > > >
> > > > > (click link)
> > > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ============ =======
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For Further Documentation Relating To These Issues See:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > After the General Council Meeting 2008
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (click link)
> > > > > http://www.teozofij a.info/Teozofsko _gibanje/ After_Convention
> > _2008.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ============ ======
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We Invite You To Join Us Daily In...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A PROJECT OF HEALING
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (click link)
> > > > > http://www.teozofij a.info/tsmembers /Delahunt_ Healing.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ============ ========
> > > > > ============ =======
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer,
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> > >
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> > >
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> >
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>  
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