Theos-Talk Archives (April 2009 Message tt00388)

Dear Katinka,

I think at this moment the process of coming to terms with the diverse allegations is still in the phase of discovery. I mentioned the very helpful service Keith Fisher is providing in this, like pointing out on the basis of the by-laws that the writing and dissemination of the spring 2008 'election letters'
was non-problematic, though possibly unethical. 

It's possible that after the discussion with Keith is over both the formal and informal leadership will perceive the whole issue as effectivley dealt with and that it's time to move on. 

It's also possible that the tables get turned and that those who made certain allegations, like Betty Bland, will get scrutinized in their turn.

In either case reform will not happen.

Preferably a grouping of the younger generation steps up the plate and provides some visionary leadership that will overcome the factional differences, provide an environment for reconciliation, and get the TS in a forward looking mode with a set of radical, openly discussed reform proposals to re-calibrate the TS into the 21st century. (For this to be effective I advise any and all would-be reformers to try to make connections with their fellow young Theosophists in Asia and India and create something really global.)

Otherwise we'll still have to seriously think about the proposal to have something like an inquiry going in order to facilitate changes:

"... the membership will be in need of a commission of inquiry to bring out all the relevant facts and analyse the procedural mistakes and misperceptions which have occured, not just to find the truth or facilitate resolution, but with an eye on remedying the problems with possibly long-overdue structural improvements in the governance model of our allegedly democratic organization." 

Govert



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Katinka Hesselink 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:10 AM
  Subject: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication





  Hi Govert, MKR and Cass,

  Govert: you're right of course: there's no formal organisational reason for us to hear from Krotona.

  But I think that's precisely the point. People like Cass and MKR don't expect to hear from Krotona because of organizational reasons, but because they feel that anyone who is outraged at this issue and has any authority at all should let it be known how they feel. Living in a network society - and knowing people like Joy Mills are very highly regarded within the TS - we'd like to hear from them. 

  But your point is of course correct from the perspective of traditional organizational politics: no reason to hear from them, because they have no official position right now. Actually that's no different with the other theosophical centers: their heads don't have an official position in the TS either, do they? 

  There's formal leadership (Radha, Betty, Kim Dieu) and informal leadership (Joy Mills, John Algeo, MKR ;) ). When leadership fails people look to the informal leaders. If they don't choose to step in, that's their prerogative. 

  As for there also being a typewriter... sure. But the internet functions very different from the typewriter in a SOCIAL perspective. Betty's made mistakes in how she's written about this issue and others because (I think) she does not understand the power of her words and how the internet works on a SOCIAL level. And she's learning how it DOES work while in a very prominent position. She deserves compassion for the very fact that she keeps going and is learning. And I'm saying that with the full awareness of all I think she should have done different. 

  Katinka Hesselink

  http://www.allconsidering.com/
  http://www.katinkahesselink.net/
  http://www.overpeinzende.nl/

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
  >
  > Dear Katinka & MKR,
  > 
  > I do not think there is any formal organizational reason to hear from Krotona for the simple reason that it is not part of the TSA nor of the international TS. For the longest time I thought that Krotona was one of the many Theosophical retreats in the USA like Far Horizons, Pumkin Hollow and Indralaya. It is not. It is a part of the ES, which is formally independent of the TS, and its head is PTS Radha Burnier. 
  > 
  > Therefore you can not expect anybody living at Krotona or being part of its board to comment, on behalf of Krotona (or the ES for that matter), on the campaign letters, Burnier's health, the PTS election, semi-secret proposals and their leaking or the 2008 GC meeting. 
  > 
  > Of course, all are TS members and are free to speak out as individuals, but so are we. There is nothing intrinsically special about the group of TS members connected to Krotona, though there are some individuals there who are outstanding. 
  > 
  > If any authorative 'speaking out' should be done it should come from someone with access to the facts and a grasp of the formal structure of the TS like the very helpful Keith Fisher. He might bring some allegations to rest and if what he reports goes unchallenged, I'll take his as the last word. 
  > 
  > But he is probably not in a position to clarify and resolve all the inter-connected problems mentioned above. For that to happen the membership will be in need of a commission of inquiry to bring out all the relevant facts and analyse the procedural mistakes and misperceptions which have occured, not just to find the truth or facilitate resolution, but with an eye on remedying the problems with possibly long-overdue structural improvements in the governance model of our allegedly democratic organization. That will require a certain citizen-spirit in the membership at the grass-root level, which might express itself either through 1) open letters; 2) in the formally correct way at our own lodge; 3) or at the yearly business meeting of our respective sections; 4) and in the end, through sending our section heads to the 2009 GC meeting with clear instructions to set up such a body of inquiry. 
  > 
  > Govert
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Cass Silva 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:39 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > I have just posted a similar response to Katinka
  > and you will see that I am of the same mind as
  > you.
  > 
  > Cass
  > 
  > ________________________________
  > From: MKR <mkr777@...>
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009 6:55:56 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ??? online communication
  > 
  > Hello, everyone. Nice to see Katinka share her views. I would like to add a
  > few facts.
  > 
  > The simplest Internet application is email. These days a lot of people
  > including older and middle aged folks in the West use it to keep in touch
  > with their family and friends. If one can type with two fingers, one can
  > write a msg and email it. Age is not a barrier. My mother learnt how to send
  > email when she was 80 years of age. (She was born and grew up in India.) She
  > quit sending email only when her eye sight became bad.
  > 
  > During the last one year, a lot of significant events have taken place in
  > TS. Except a few well known members, no one has come out on the Internet
  > with any views on the events. This is very significant.
  > 
  > The comment about Krotona simply highlights the fact that the cream of the
  > dedicated, knowledgeable and experienced theosophists who are deeply
  > committed to theosophy and TS have kept silent on the events. Ordinary
  > members especially the rookies (newbees) find this totally perplexing
  > because there is a severe disconnect between what they hear of basic
  > theosophical ideas and what they see in action.
  > 
  > All some of us can do is to do is go to the top of the tower and shout that
  > the house is on fire. Hope some one hears.
  > 
  > MKR
  > 
  > There is no religion higher than truth
  > 
  > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Katinka Hesselink <
  > mail@katinkahesseli nk.net> wrote:
  > 
  > >
  > >
  > > Hi all,
  > >
  > > I think a lot of the current confusion is due to the fact that the old
  > > hands at Krotona (and in Wheaton & in Adyar) just don't know what to do with
  > > the new media which are used to spread information and misinformation,
  > > innuendo and fact.
  > >
  > > I was talking with my mother just this morning about this. She is used to
  > > the slow communication methods of her youth. Getting used to students who
  > > rap out a fast reply to just about any question is hard for her. Similarly
  > > our leaders are in a position that is hardly enviable: the internet and
  > > e-mail are used to spread ideas, thoughts, opinions - but the habits of how
  > > to respond to them have not been formed. With the result that people decide
  > > on what used to be the best response to many problems: just let it blow
  > > past. Giving energy to something will only strengthen it, after all.
  > >
  > > Or in other words 'if you have nothing to say that would contribute, hold
  > > your tongue'. But, as both writers below have noticed, this no longer works
  > > in the same way. And another saying becomes pertinent: 'inaction in a deed
  > > of mercy is a deadly sin' (mahatma quote I think).
  > >
  > > I'm not saying it is a deadly sin. I'm saying that we are in the midst of a
  > > culture learning to deal with a new technology that is changing the way we
  > > communicate. And the people at the top are called on to learn to deal with
  > > them while in the spotlight. It's not surprising they are making serious
  > > mistakes while doing so - because it takes another way of dealing with
  > > emotions than they grew up with.
  > >
  > > So I'm not surprised at not having heard from Krotona. I'm not sure I blame
  > > them either.
  > >
  > > There's a digital divide here - and some are crossing it with skill, others
  > > without - and some are simply not crossing it at all. It really is too much
  > > to expect people in their eighties to do more than observe what's going on
  > > online.
  > >
  > > Katinka Hesselink
  > > http://www.allconsi dering.com/
  > > http://www.katinkah esselink. net/
  > > http://www.overpein zende.nl/
  > >
  > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>,
  > > "t_s_theosophist" <THEOSOPHIST@ ...> wrote:
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > ??? MORAL LEADERSHIP ???
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > It certainly takes no degree of clairvoyance to realize that a certain
  > > group of General Secretaries, labeled "The Quartet" has been playing "Dirty
  > > Politics." Anyone with a Clear and Perceptive Mind can see this.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > First....An attempt to depict Radha Burnier as physically & mentally
  > > unfit to hold office, contrary to the medical evidence of three reputable
  > > physicans.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Second...A clandestine attempt to dis-enfranchise T.S. members from
  > > voting.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Third...An untrue and unwarranted attack on the veracity of the Indian
  > > Section, with no evidence to substantiate the allegations.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Fourth ...An attempt to disrupt the business of the General Council
  > > meeting.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > And Now a passive/agressive promotion to bias the membership against
  > > Adyar.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > In the note below, M.K. Ramadoss raises a profound question which is on
  > > the minds of not only many Theosophists but also the internet public at
  > > large.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > I would also add: What is the Karma of Silence when confronted with the
  > > Sinister and unmoral activity that The "Quartet" has been and continues to
  > > promote?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Fraternaly;
  > > >
  > > > William Delahunt
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > ------------ --------- -
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > M.K. RAMADOSS COMMENTS:
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > From what I understand, Krotona residents are long-time dedicated members
  > > of TS and I am also told that they are also members of esoteric section.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Many of the residents are past and present theosophical leaders,
  > > lecturers and writers. So, rookie members assume that the cream of wisdom
  > > resides there.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > For ordinary members who have been following the events since the
  > > beginning of the international election last year, the silence of members at
  > > Krotona is a real puzzle.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > There was the spreading of the untruth about Radha Burnier's health by
  > > some leaders world-wide. Even after this untruth was proven false, the
  > > leaders took no action to fix their earlier allegations.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Then came the unproven allegations of procedural errors in the election
  > > in India.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Final bombshell was the ultra secret attempt to seize control of
  > > presidency by disenfranchising members world-wide, which was fortunately
  > > discovered in time and broadcast over Internet and TS was saved from a
  > > disaster.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > During all of the above, we did not hear a single word of protest against
  > > any of the above from any of the leaders " past and present" residing at
  > > Krotona.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Is the above behaviour a reflection of the fear of the consequences of
  > > calling a spade a spade or they do not see what was going on?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > We have read in the historical accounts, men and women losing even their
  > > lives in their
  > > > fight for Truth. Are we seeing the real effects of Kali Yuga?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Rookie and ordinary members are really perplexed.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > M.K. Ramadoss
  > > >
  > > > There is no religion higher than truth
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > ============ ======
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Theos-Talk
  > > >
  > > > (click link)
  > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > ============ =======
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > For Further Documentation Relating To These Issues See:
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > After the General Council Meeting 2008
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > (click link)
  > > > http://www.teozofij a.info/Teozofsko _gibanje/ After_Convention _2008.htm
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > ============ ======
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > We Invite You To Join Us Daily In...
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > A PROJECT OF HEALING
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > (click link)
  > > > http://www.teozofij a.info/tsmembers /Delahunt_ Healing.htm
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > ============ ========
  > > > ============ =======
  > > >
  > >
  > > 
  > >
  > 
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