Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
Apr 21, 2009 12:59 PM
by Morten Nymann Olesen
Dear Govert
My views are:
I am not disagreeing with that.
I was rather referring to the fact that most western beginner Seekers and a number of eastern Seekers even these days use near blind devotion towards, what they BELIEVE is or was a Master or rather an Avatar, not knowing whether they are or were in touch with a real one or a fake one. Some of those Seekers even believe themselves to be accepted Chelas of a Master/Avatar, even when they are mislead by a fake one. Take The Roman Catholic Churchs dogmas.
That is where I find the difference in the HPB view and the view I am talking about when referring to the J. Krishnamurti promotion created by Besant, CWL and others in his early days and later until at least 1929 or so.
By emphasizing the World Teacher in the flesh and watering down the doctrine of the Divine within each human being, they effectively created an emotional cult. A World Teacher aught not to be promoted, but aught to be know (not merely believed) on his or her fruits. And we all know J. Krishnamurtis views about theosophical teachings, teachings given by Blavatsky, and the ideas of comparative study. Later J. Krishnamurti changed and rejected the theosophical Guru-Chela idea in a manner, which also had bad consequences.
The theosophical guru idea is different. The Master decides if you are READY to be accepted as being on probation as a chela. The teacher has to show his or her value. And the student has to do the same. A person being promoted as an Avatar and World Teacher without having shown his or her value cannot be said to be expressing the hallmark of theosophical teachings. And not when he allows almost anyone to be on "probation".
It is said: First study. When you are ready the Master arrives. It is rather the Master who finds you and not you who - believe you know - that you have found the Master.
A few words:
"The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn.' "
http://home1.stofanet.dk/theos-octagon/skole_1.htm
There is a time, a place, teacher, teaching and circumstances to take into account.
It is also known, that J. Krishnamurti lectured allowing very uncritically anyone to attend to his lectures.
-------
My view is, that One of J. Krishnamurtis (plus Besant and CWL's) problems was understanding the Western mind-set versus the Doctrine of the Divine Within, plus the Master-Chela teachings. The following aught - analogically speaking - to tell us something about this, at least to a certain degree.
H.P. Blavatsky wrote in December 1887:
In CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing
the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a doctrine
diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu Esotericism
and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss
between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas
yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS
and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to
prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of
that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]
...when one legend based upon these mysteries attempts to arrogate
exclusive rights to itself above all the rest; when it declares
itself an infallible dogma to force the popular faith into a dead
letter belief, to the detriment of the true metaphysical meaning,
such legend must be denounced, its veil torn away, and itself
displayed in its nakedness to the world! [374]. . .
Whether it be Krishna, Buddha, Sosiosh, Horus or Christos, it is a
universal PRINCIPLE. . .
...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,
and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the
Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents
them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic
Wisdom. . . . [374]
. . . I have not the slightest intention of hurting the feelings of
those who believe in Jesus, the carnalized Christ, but I feel myself
compelled to emphasize our own belief. . . .
. . . It is in this ancient wisdom, and in the Christos of the
Gnostics under its various names, that the Theosophists, disciples of
the Mahatmas, believe. . . . [385]
. . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
Flesh. . . .[390]
Quoted from H.P. Blavatsky's COLLECTED WRITINGS, Volume VIII.
- - -
J. Krishnamurti a promoted infallible dogma?
When you delete a Pope, just to replace him or her with a new one. One will ask what is the new teaching about? Meditation without a guide, because no gurus are allowed? Or only one guide: the new J. Krishnamurti Pope, who now is only able to guide from non-physical realms, where the beginner Seekers, who have not prepared themselves by carrying out proper study and comparative study, will be lead either into the wrong path given by an imagined spirit of the dead or by a real compassionate guide?
So to the Western mind the idea of "study before emotional attraction" was replaced by "emotional attraction of the flesh incarnate". And that "flesh" disallowed the Master-Chela teachings. Was it not?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
Dear Morten,
To be sure that were not dishing the quality of devotion, the following quote:
"Belonging, as we do, to the so-called "inferior" Asiatic race, we cannot help having for our Masters that boundless devotion which the European condemns as slavish. The Western races would however do well to remember that if some of the poor Asiatics arrived at such a height of knowledge regarding the mysteries of nature, it was only due to the fact that the Chelas have always blindly followed the dictates of their Masters and have never set themselves higher than, or even as high as, their Gurus. The result was that sooner or later they were rewarded for their devotion, according to their respective capacities and merits by those who, owing to years of self-sacrifice and devotion to their Gurus, had in their turn become ADEPTS. (BCW IV: 229)
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
Why not Emotional?
I find, that one of the great similarities between for instance Prem Rawat followers, Krishnamurti World Teacher followers, David Koresh followers, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada followers (Hare Krishna) followers was and still is of an emotional nature.
Not adding a teaching about the difference between indoctrination, propaganda and brainwashing for the Seekers to undertstand is perhaps not so healthy.
Two reasons: Comparative studying are and was kept down. And / or belief in the Leader as being the Truth incarnate was promoted.
Try this one - "Mind Control Cults":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
(I am not all that pro Youtube, but I find this to be a good example.)
Devotional "Love-bombing" is sometimes so efficient, that one doesn't know, that one have become a victim of it. :-)
However, these are just my views, and I am not seeking to promote any blind or assumed belief of any Avatar in the Flesh.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
Dear Morten,
You say that AB and CWL were "effectively creating an EMOTIONAL cult" with the OSE.
I'd like to see that rephrased to DEVOTIONAL cult, the seeds for which were sown by HPB herself by announcing in KTH:
"If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!"
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
Dear friends and Anand
My views are:
If I may?
I find that HPB said something like: We seek Quality Seekers and not a great amount of emotional Seekers. Such Seekers are to be found in the numerous emotional sects most of them given non-theosophical names. Yet elementary books was also sought to be produced. And some of them was in fact written by W. Q. Judge, Tookaram Tatya or Turkaram Tatya, Mabel Collins and others.
I find that, it is NOT an objective and correct conclusion, to say that Besant and CWL were the best of the later TS writers just becuase their books sold the most. We know, that contain errors. In fact grave errors!
I find, that The TS Masters of Wisdom will and would never promote - the anticipation of - an official physical World Avatar in the FLESH, like Besant and CWL did, and thereby effectively creating an EMOTIONAL cult - instead of an honest Search after the Truth. The Tree is however always known on its fruits.
I find the book "The Key to Theosophy" by HPB to be understood only by very few seekers, whose primary study is Besant and CWL books. It is said that Annie Besant followed Pandit Gopinath views in Benares.....See the following......
"The Secret Doctrine, Krishnamurti, and Transformation" by Aryel Sanat
"Pandit Jagannath Upadyaya of Varanasi, who had found a copy of the original text of the Kala Chakra Tantra, and who was undertaking research into it, told Krishnaji that Pandit Gopinath Kaviraj maintained that the Theosophical Society drew much of its hidden teaching from this secret doctrine. He went on to say that Swami Vishudhanand and Gopinath Kaviraj, in the early years of the twentieth century, had spoken to Mrs. Besant of the imminent coming of the Maitreya Bodhisattva and his manifestation in a human body; according to the swami, the body chosen was that of Krishnamurti. 2" ( 2 Jayakar, Krishnamurti, op. cit., pp. 30-31. )
http://www.teosofia.com/book9.html
More info on the above quote and words?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Anand
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
Daniel is assuming that HPB was a successful reformer in spiritual field. This claim needs to be examined. When HPB was alive, she was neither popular in the East, nor in the West. After her death writings of Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater became popular. These two later writers brought glory to Theosophy. As HPB was founder of TS, she got glorified. But a researcher should see what HPB could do on her own independent strength. As I said earlier, HPB's theosophy was not much popular in the East and the West when she was alive.
Best
Anand Gholap
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
>
> Daniel asked: "Where do you start?" [in figuring out all the post-HPB claims of contact with the same Masters she claimed to have worked with]
>
> Maybe, and this is tentatively, by combining the following ideas:
>
> 1) HPB is not infallible, therefore any pronouncements about later messengers might not be necessarily true.
>
> 2) As per HPB, there might have been a messenger active during the 1975-2000 period (of course this claim of HPB might also not be true as per 1). This should give a certain motivation to engage in some detective work.
>
> 3) Initiates, adpets, messengers, avatars have come and gone throughout history. HPB is unique, but one has to be careful not to make her into the first and last pope of theosophy.
>
> 4) HPB's writings might have fulfilled a certain role in her own time, but it is possible that the Masters came to the conclusion that other ways of bringing Theosophy to the public should be attempted. Anrias makes a case for that idea, saying that the life-style of the average man in the West was not conducive to get the intended transformative effect of studying the SD. consequently a more ritualistic track had to be persued.
>
> 5) HPB's prophecied "torch bearer of truth" indicates that the Masters had some more plans up their sleeves than just leaving mankind with HPB's writings. The World Teacher project with Krishnamurti in relation to HPB's writings can be interpreted such that the Masters indeed moved on and even had a role for CWL and AB.
>
> 6) As HPB and the TS were a project of M and KH for which they asked permission from their superiors, there is no a priori reason to exclude the possibility that another Master might have asked for something similar. For example, it is the founding story of the Ascended Master groups that Saint Germain asked for such permission and reveived it.
>
> 7) There might be situations where the Masters will have to activate some initiates into the public forum for a specific purpose. For example Scott and Anrias to counteract the devastating effects of the failure of the WT project.
>
> 8) It is not impossible to develop HPB-independent criteria by which all post-HPB claims can be measured with. With this I mean that we do not have to take HPB as the measuring rod, but should carefully create our own and some of which can be legitimately derived from HPB.
>
> Any of these ideas just mentioned might be shot down by adhering to a dogmatic interpretation of HPB, which is fine as long as she fulfills your criteria for truth, or you chose to make a leap of faith, or made any other choice that put you into such position. With all respect, I'm not there. For me the linch-pin of the whole issue is the genuine but failed WT project and it is from there that I reason back into its past build-up with HPB and the TS and reason into its future consequences with Scott, Anrias, Ballard and Prophet.
>
> Govert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: danielhcaldwell
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:43 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Who Do You Read? What Do You Believe?
>
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Gordon Melton, an expert on modern cults and minority religions, has written:
>
> "A number of individuals have claimed contact with one of the Masters FIRST described by Blavatsky and [some] have begun new organizations based upon the individual revelation imparted." caps added.
>
> Below is a PARTIAL list of the claimants:
>
> (1) In the 1890s, William Q. Judge said he was in contact with HPB's Master Morya as well as the deceased HPB. Judge claimed he precipitated letters from Master M. and gave out further esoteric teachings.
>
> (2) Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater affirmed that they were in direct communication with HPB's Masters and the deceased HPB. They gave out various Theosophical teachings in their voluminous writings.
>
> (3) Katherine Tingley, the occult successor of Judge, said she was in contact with HPB's Masters and claimed to have met on at least two occasions the Master Morya in his physical body.
>
> (4) G. de Purucker, Tingley's successor, testified that the Masters M. & K.H. came to visit him in 1929 at Theosophical Society headquarters, Point Loma, San Diego, California. Purucker claimed that he was allowed to give out deeper esoteric teachings than HPB, Judge or Tingley had given.
>
> (5) Alice Bailey said she was in contact with Masters K.H. and D.K and wrote more than 20 volumes of teachings said to be from D.K. She even gave out further installments of the Stanzas of Dzyan.
>
> (6) Mrs. Francia A. La Due (of the Temple of the People) gave out messages from the Masters, especially from Hilarion. She also published more Stanzas from the Book of Dzyan.
>
> (7) Guy Ballard (of the "I Am" Movement) claimed to be in communication with the Masters, especially St. Germain.
>
> (8) Helena Roerich (of the Agni Yoga Society) published some 13 volumes of communications supposedly from the Master Morya.
>
> (9) Mark Prophet and his wife Elizabeth Clare (of the Church Universal and Triumphant) claimed to be the emissaries of the Great White Brotherhood and have channeled thousands of messages from El Morya, Kut Humi, the Virgin Mary, Hercules, Chastity and a variety of other Masters and entities.
>
> (10) Earlyne Chaney of Astara believed she was in communication with Kut-Hi-Mi and Zoser and other Masters of the Great White Brotherhood. She has given out various so-called esoteric and occult teachings.
>
> (11) Nada-Yolanda of Mark-Age, Inc has channeled numerous messages from M., K.H., and others Masters associated with UFOs.
>
> (12) Max Heindel, Rudolf Steiner and Geoffrey Hodson have claimed clairvoyant powers and to be in contact with various Masters - Rosicrucian, Theosophical or otherwise.
>
> (13) Other supposed communications from HPB's Masters have come from Brother Philip in his book titled Secret of the Andes, from Cyril Scott in his series of books starting with The Initiate, and from David Anrias in his book Through the Eyes of the Masters.
>
> And the list goes on . . . .
>
> So who do you believe? Which books by any of these individuals do you read?
>
> Where do you start?
>
> Hundreds of books and articles have been written by all these above-named individuals.
>
> For more related information and a suggested course of study, see:
>
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophicaltraditions.htm
>
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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